Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

You may be right - but shouldn't we, just once in a while, hear about them too? Instead of being told, again and again, that the insane ramblings of a Ray Arcel or a Gene Tunney should be taken seriously!

 

Oh absolutely, you want to hear every viewpoint.

I think the general picture, is that most people were pretty impressed by him head to head, but many were critical of his choice of opposition.

 

So are you actually saying if I wanted an unbiased viewpoint of the music I grew up with in the 60's I should ignore my own ears, and my contemporaries, and instead ask some modern day college boy who is " studying " that era?

Seems a waste of time to me, but about right by today's standards.

 

No, that's obviously not what I'm saying. I don't think you can compare boxing and music like that.

What I'm saying is this: If you want an unbiased opinion of Muhammad Ali, I'm probably not the right guy to ask. I was born in 1952, which means I was a young teenager, just getting into boxing, during his first reign. If I say, that I believe he's the best heavyweight ever, that would be my honest opinion. But is it an unbiased opinion? I would like to think so - but is it really? It may be a result of the fact, that he was my first big hero!

 

You have conscious biases, unconscious biases, and confirmation biases to contend with.

It is all a bit of a minefield really!

 

You are not an expert. Professionals look at their profession quite differently than the lay public. When just about every expert of the time says Dempsey was the real deal it means more than any modern opinion. They saw him fight and train and spar in person and had the technical expertise to understand what they were seeing. All we have are grainy, silent movie era films that make every fighter appear less than what they were.

 

Perhaps your conclusion is "irrefutable" because it is, in fact, just an opinion.

I'm in favour of objectivity. :good
Perhaps we should define our terms first, because such terms as "bums" are open to various interpretations.

Let's assume you reached a reasonable conclusion based on the objective facts.
Describing Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons and Firpo as "bums" might cause confusion if we don't define what we mean by "bum".

I think I understand the vast scope of what "bum" might mean in the regular parlance of a boxing fan, in ordinary discussions between two fans where precision might take a back seat to emotive and partisan argumentation.

But to a REAL HISTORIAN to looks OBJECTIVELY at the big picture, what is the precise meaning of the term "bum" here ?

 

Don't give any weight to my opinion, Klompton says I know f*ck all!

 

Bum is not a term that should be applied when describing a professional boxer imo.In particular when used by a "civilian".

 

Langford for one came from an earlier era And certainly you can look at Langfords opinion as an expert opinion. He felt Dempsey was the greatest hwt he ever saw. Certainly it is natural for those who grew up with a great champion to think of that fighter as the best. However this generational opinion is bestowed only upon a great all time fighter! You do not see a generation stating Braddock was the greatest or Leon Spinks or Schmeling, or Walcott. Instead who do the generations of fans look at as the greatest?.....the greatest fighters! So no matter how you want to look at it there is no doubt that Dempsey was an ATG. The experts from that time wrote he was the best, the lay fan felt he was the best. If you know the sport and LOOK at the skills he demonstrated in the ring even though clouded in silient era quality film it's all there.

 

No. It's disputed by at least one poster. You cannot write what was written above and still claim said fighter was the best of the best or an ATG. Dempsey was the best of the best and a top ATG by pretty much all those that saw him fight including the experts of that time. No fighters gets that level of praise unless he is very very special.

 

There is no doubt unless you ignore expert opinion of that time that Dempsey was a very elite ATG. No fighter gets that level of praise unless he is something very special.