Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Langford:

"Dempsey is the greatest hwt I Have ever seen. He hits harder than Jeffries and is twice as fast as Corbett"

He goes on to say that if Dempsey fights Wills his money would be on Dempsey to win.

 

Sam Langford:

"What I do think, however, is that Jack Dempsey ought to give Harry Wills a chance at the title. By not doing so, I believe he shows he is somewhat afraid of Wills. It proves it to me by the fooling around he has done with Harry. First, he goes West and signs up with Floyd Fitzsimmons to box Wills and then comes back East and signs up with Rickard for a bout with Tunney. I guess he doesn't care for any of Harry's game, else he would give the man who has been chosen as the logical contender for his title a chance with him."

 

Can someone explain why, if they gave Wills, 50k I believe, that the fight was never made? They both signed and the promoter couldn't come up with the bucks to do the fight, if there was such a huge demand for demand for the fight. I believe the fight would have happened if the demand/bucks was there.
Another question would we be talking about Wills at all if his name wasn't attached to Dempsey's? Wills wasn't that good but on here it seems as if he was close to being a superman.
Here we are almost 90 yrs later arguing about Dempsey, shoulda done this and shoulda done that. The fact is Dempsey is remembered and revered over 90yrs as a true champion who brought more to the game then anybody else, whether you believe he was the greatest or not, it's Dempsey's name that carries weight. I cant say for sure, but I would think Dempsey has more threads and posts devoted to him then any other fighter in history. Greb, while an ATG has very few threads, why is that???

 

I don't think anyone has said Wills was Superman. You may ask would anyone remember Wills if it weren't for Dempsey, yet you might also ask would anyone remember Dempsey if he'd actually fought Wills. Suppose they'd fought in 1920, and Dempsey lost, what would their legacies be now?

Dempsey is a revered and legendary fighter, yet his failure to fight Wills is probably the most infamous duck in boxing history, and it made Wills the poster child for avoided fighters. I'm not sure there's another heavyweight champion who really comes close. That's why, 90 years on, whenever Dempsey's name crops up, Wills' name inevitably follows, and so it will be 90 years from now.

 

Wills denied that he ever recieved 50k.

 

I guess you're right, but why is everybody avoiding the impact of fighting a black fighter in that era, when even Joe Louis had to toe the line and behave cos of the Johnson- Jeffries fight. I posted articles from that time period and all said the same thing, the race riots. Dempsey' name stands by itself, he doesn't need Wills, to make him, they couldn't come up with the bucks to make the fight happen. I think everybody forgets Dempsey had a greedy promoter and manager. Dempsey was making money hand over fist, by his appearances, exhibitions, and movie series', that's probably why he didn't fight as often as he should have. Dempsey's name will live on cos of what he did in the ring. The Willard and Firpo fight were the fights people remember, not that he didn't fight Wills.

 

That's why I like coming on here, you learn something new everyday. I didn't know that. Do you know why he wasn't given that money?

 

Incredible post. So true.

 

Berlenbach, yes 90 years from now when Dempsey's name comes up, Will's name follows,ONLY ON ESB FOLKS, ONLY ON ESB. Makes todays Dempsey haters feel good on ESB...
These naysayers on ESB deny that pure and simply Jack Dempsey was the greatest ring attraction in boxing history for a damned good reason, and those millions of hard nosed fans knew a hell of a lot more about a man in their midst, than his "noble" critics today predominately on ESB. And they still deny that Dempsey and Wills DID sign for a fight that was canceled for insufficient funds...They deny or omit this fact because it does not fit their agenda...PURE AND SIMPLY...
agenda...

 

It's is not and certainly WAS not the job of a worlds hwt champion to make fights. That was the job of Dempseys management and they and those that controlled boxing did not want the bout to occur. Once Dempsey was free from his management he tried hard to make the bout occur but even though Dempseys management was no longer in place those that controlled boxing were still in place and steadfastly road locked the fight from occurring. No matter who was champion between 1919 and 1926 Wills was not getting a title shot.

 

Rly? Only on esb? Go pull up any bio of Dempsey and tell me that again with a straight face. Start with the one your beloved Nat Fleischer wrote.

 

You can parrot this all day long it will never make it true.

 

Wills is not some imaginary figure conjured up by Dempsey haters on a boxing forum 90 years later. All those thousands of boxing fans in Dempsey's own time who voted in polls naming Wills as his top challenger, were they all Dempsey haters too? All the contemporary sportswriters who called Dempsey out for not fighting Wills, were they haters? Sam Langford had a lot of praise for Dempsey the fighter, and he criticized Dempsey for not fighting Wills, suggesting that he was afraid of him. Was he a hater? The Wills-Dempsey fight that never was was a major talking point in Dempsey's career almost from the day he won the title, carried on until the day he lost it, and has continued ever since. That's why we're still talking about it 90 years on.

As for signing to fight Wills, Dempsey himself admitted in one of his biographies that the contract was worded by Kearns in such as way as to allow them to wriggle out of it, which they duly did. That's from the horse's mouth.

 

I don't think anyone has said Wills was Superman. THEN WHY MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL? HE CERTAINLY WASNT UNBEATEN AND KNEW FIRST HAND WHAT IT WAS TO BE KNOCKED OUT.
You may ask would anyone remember Wills if it weren't for Dempsey, yet you might also ask would anyone remember Dempsey if he'd actually fought Wills. Suppose they'd fought in 1920, and Dempsey lost, what would their legacies be now? WE CAN SUPPOSE ALL YOU WANT THE REALITY WAS
ACCORDING TO THE MEDIA AND EXPERTS ACTUALLY ALIVE AT THE TIME AND SEEN BOTH THOUGHT DEMPSEY WOULD HAVE BEATEN WILLS. IF YOU'RE SUPPOSING THESE 90 YRS LATER, I GUESS YOU COULD SUPPOSE ALL YOU WANT.

Dempsey is a revered and legendary fighter, yet his THE KEY WORD HERE IS "HIS", DEMPSEY DIDNT AVOID WILLS THE TIMES DICTATED WHAT WAS TO BE. HOW ANYBODY CAN AVOID THE WORDS AND FEELINGS OF THAT TIME AGAINST A BLACK HEAVYWEIGHT FIGHTING A WHITE HEAVYWEIGHT FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND THEY ALL SEEMED TO SAY THE SAME THING BLAME JOHNSON AND THE RACE RIOTS, SO REALLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS SUPPOSING AND ASSUMING, WHICH IS OK TO SPECTALATE WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING. THE FIGHT DIDNT HAPPEN FOR REASONS STATED IF YOU CHOOSE TO SPECTALATE NOW 90 YRS AFTER THE FACT IS OK, THESE ARE JUST YOUR OPINIONS. THE OPINIONS THAT MATTERED WERE STATED 90 YRS AGO.

failure to fight Wills is probably the most infamous duck in boxing history, SO SAYETH YOU, YOU SUPPOSE AS YOU HAVE THAT IT MADE Wills the poster child for avoided fighters. I'm not sure there's another heavyweight champion who really comes close. That's why, 90 years on, whenever Dempsey's name crops up, Wills' name inevitably follows, and so it will be 90 years from now. NOT REALLY PEOPLE ALIVE AT THAT TIME DIDNT CARRY ON LIKE THIS IN FACT JOE LOUIS FACED THE SAME HEAT AND OVERCAME IT BUT IT WAS ALMOST 20 YRS LATER

 

The same could be said of Dempsey. The difference is that the person who knocked out Wills was the same guy Dempsey ducked around the same time while the guy who knocked out Dempsey was a much faded version of the one that was knocked senseless by the guy who Dempsey ducked...

Fights are fought in the ring, not in the imaginations of experts, media, and fans. Those same experts and media picked Liston to beat Ali, I guess Liston should have never fought him... Why even stage fights? Lets just write the history of the sport based on opinion...

This keeps getting repeated and simply isnt true. Dempsey personally drew the color line several times in his career. Dempsey was more than happy to avoid Wills and did so actively when he was controlling his own destiny. Nevermind that Kearns was Dempsey's employee. Not the other way around. You can only hide behind Kearns and Rickard so much. 1/3 of Dempsey's title fights were for promoters other than Rickard and he had DOZENS of offers from other promoters to face Wills. He looked the other way. It was a big game for him and Kearns and Dempsey was smart enough to know which side his bread was buttered on: The side that didnt make him fight legitimate threats.

How can anyone be so obtuse and parrot this ridiculous party line when Wills was considered Dempsey's logical challenger throughout, won every poll conducted among the press and public, had the widest support among the media. You "Dempsey1234" and people like you want to ignore that had Wills really been this straw man his name would have long since been forgotten. Instead the one constant in Dempsey's reign was that Wills was there in the background as his boogaboo. If everybody at the time was a rabid racist Wills wouldnt have had that kind of support and that kind of publicity.

And 90 years ago there were tons of people who understood that Dempsey was ducking his top challenger. The problem is that those opinions dont matter to you. You and your ilk have made up your mind in spite of any evidence to the contrary.

Can you name a longer and more egregious ducking of a top contender?

Actually yes they did. In fact Dempsey complained about it how he was hounded by people regarding Wills.

No he didnt. Joe Louis was controlled by the most powerful boxing promoter on the planet. He was the money fighter. All roads led to him before he ever won the title. You need to familiarize yourself with some of this stuff before speaking.