Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

And of course Nat maintained until his dying day that Ali did not warrant a place in his top 10.

 

No..you are the moron. Did you get into college?

Look at all those great historians and writers and how high they all rank Dempsey. THANK YOU!

 

And Ali was for the most part unranked all time by the time Nat died in 1972. It was not until Ali regained the championship in 74 and even more so after beating Frazier in 75 that he was firmly listed all time.

 

Depends on your criteria. If I am rating technical greatness Tunney is above Holmes and many others. If I am rating accomplishments Holmes is ahead of Tunney. Both appear on my all time top ten.

 

Perry, without getting into the Dempsey debate here, I would point out that your oft-repeated argument in this thread (Look at what all the experts said for years and years) is not an argument at all, but an appeal to the authority of others.

And repeating it over and over doesn't strengthen the case.

You've cited authorities and lists and such, including lists that are clearly ridiculous. The only placement that seems to interest you is Dempsey's. You ignore other placements on those same lists which render the whole list suspect at best, and laughable.

Dempsey was undoubtedly a great HW, and ATG (by most definitions) who captured the imagination of post WW1 America with his bio and his pugilistic style.

He failed, for whatever reason, to face the best of his era.

Both of the foregoing are true, and need to be considered together.

 

Not a question of endorsing. Krapton stated that Fleischer believed Wills would ko Dempsey. However he ignores that Nat rated Dempsey 4th all time and did not rate Wills. In a poor effort to cover his tracks Krapton then states Nat did not rate Wills because by not facing Dempsey Wills was unable to attain a level of greatness that would allow Nat to rate him all time. I then pointed out that Langford another black fighter who like Wills never got a crack at the title was indeed rated 7th all time by Fleischer. Obtaining a championship was not necessary to be ranked on his all time rankings. Fleischer did not rate Wills but indeed rated both Dempsey and Langford.

 

"Johnson was living in France"

"Burns was a unique globe trotter"

Okay.

"Both came prior to Dempsey's era."

Which meant they had set a precedent for having championship fights outside the USA.

"Carpentier was never hvt. champion"

Okay.

"He lived in Europe."

That is necessary to have a fight in Europe? Dempsey and Wills couldn't get a visa and couldn't be licensed?

"You both do not understand the history of those times."

Okay.

So a world championship fight between a white man and black man can be be staged in Paris in 1922 but it is utterly impossible for a Dempsey and Wills fight to be staged there?

Why exactly?


*I certainly understand that Dempsey and those who were running his career were not interested in exploring this option, but explain why it wasn't an option.

 

That's one possible point of view.

 

Untrue. How experts of that time viewed a fighter is prime source data to determine greatness. Dempsey was ranked very very highly. How experts rate Dempsey today is also important. Even after so many years he is still rated by many all time top ten. You and a few others are on the losing side of the discussion unfortunately.

 

So do you agree with Fleischer that by 1972 Ali did not deserve an all-time top ten ranking?

 

Anything is a possibility but is it a reasonable potential possibility based on the circumstances? Your asking a current hwt champion to not only first exhaust all options in the states and then leave his home country once he finds no options during a time where travel overseas was very primitive and set up a bout somewhere overseas?

For the fifth time hwt champions don't set up fights. They don't set them up today and it was COMPLETELY unheard of in Dempseys time. It just was not considered or done. Yet Dempsey went against ALL president and tried to set up a fight but found roadblocks all along the way. Now that is understood THAT is not good enough? He has to trample over to the four corners of the earth during a time where international travel was a huge undertaking to satisfy you? What outlandish mindset are you coming from?

 

I was around in 1972. Were you? Ali was considered a fringe ATG at most at that time. It was not until Ali regained the championship in 1974 that he was seriously considered an ATG. He then climbed the top 10 to top 5 after beating Frazier in 1975. Since then he has claimed first or second place on most all time rankings. I did not rank Ali all time in 1972 as did most everyone else.

 

I could see Ali not making a top 10 in 1972. I don't think it's so egregious to have that viewpoint for the time. Ali had lost the fight of the century and many many ppl felt the rematch with Liston was a fix.

 

"travel overseas was very primitive"

You mean on an ocean liner? Once it docked in Europe there were trains, just like there were to Shelby. I wonder though if the hotels in Shelby were as classy as the top of the line ones in Paris.

My point is that if Dempsey really wanted to set up a fight with Wills, he could have gone to Europe, but it is an option he didn't explore.

"What outlandish mindset are you coming from?"

I won't deny I'm outlandish.

But what about your mindset.

You have maintained over and over again that a fight within the United States between Dempsey and a black challenger was impossible because of the racial climate of the time. This might be true. Then you say that Dempsey tried to set up a fight with Wills within the United States, but ran into roadblocks. Wasn't that predictable and shouldn't Dempsey have expected it--if he was on the level.

But the one option which might have allowed the fight to come off, taking it out of the United States, is off the table and outlandish.