Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Feel free to post what years during Dempsey's reign when Harry Greb was the number-one heavyweight contender.

In the 1920s, Harry Wills was the number one contender. Then it was Tunney. Then it was Sharkey.

Dempsey should've faced Wills. Wills got cheated out of a heavyweight title shot. Dempsey fought the other two.

I think Dempsey would've stopped Wills, but he should've fought him regardless.

 

Now you're just deflecting.

Greb and Tunney fought five times. Tunney won two of those clearly. To say he beat Greb "over and over again" is patently untrue.

Was Miske better than Greb in 1920? Considering he was dying of Bright's disease, had had one fight in the past 14 months (against a no hoper) and also lost to Greb decisively in 1919, nope.

Was Brennan better than Greb in 1920? Considering he'd lost four times to Greb the previous year, barely even winning a round, and had done nothing to distinguish himself since, nope.

Was Carpentier better than Greb in 1921? Compare their records, nope.

Was GIbbons better than Greb in 1923? Considering he lost decisively to Greb in a title eliminator the previous year and also lost their previous encounter, nope.

Saying Dempsey fought Tunney who was better than the above in 1926 somehow excuses years of fighting opponents who were inferior to Greb is absurd logic.

 

I'm not deflecting anything.

Dempsey's top contender during most of his reign was Harry Wills. He should've fought him. I've said that practically every time I've typed Harry Wills name in this thread. DEMPSEY SHOULD'VE FOUGHT WILLS. There, I said it for the two-hundredth time. How the f*ck is that "deflecting?"

After Wills, then Gene Tunney and then Jack Sharkey were the top heavys (other than Dempsey).

If you want to add the months after Dempsey and Tunney retired, when Sharkey wasn't always rated number-one, and a Schmeling or Godfrey assumed the top spot, fine.

BUT IT WAS NEVER HARRY GREB.

Ever.

Harry Greb wasn't ever rated the top heavyweight contender. He never beat the number-one contender Wills. By the time Tunney got up to the top spot, he'd already beaten Greb repeatedly in the lower weight class. And the only time Tunney weighed in at heavyweight against Greb, he reportedly beat the hell out of Greb.

And Greb never fought Sharkey.

Harry Greb was never the top heavyweight contender. There were basically THREE top heavyweight challengers in the 1920s ... Wills, Tunney and Sharkey ... and Dempsey fought two of them.

He should've fought all three. Greb wasn't among them. Enough already.

:hi:

 

You said Tunney beat Greb "over and over again". He didn't. And now you've been called out on it, you're changing the subject.

 

St Petersburg press
"Need of an Alibi"
The foul claim by Sharkey was bound to be snatched at by a considerable number of experts who had almost unanimously declared Sharkey would win the fight. At this sudden conclusion they and Sharkey were in so much in need of an alibi. When the whole affair has been sifted down to the last sift the fact remains that Dempsey won because he would not give up and Sharkey did because he would. For a time it appeared the body blows did not bother Sharkey then they appeared to annoy him. Finally it was apparent that he was downright disgusted with that sort of thing. He could not understand why his own flashing punches were not causing the "hollow shell" to crack. He probably will never understand that the first crack that materialized was that one flush on his jaw. Although the record book will show Dempsey won by a series of body blows follies by a left hook flush on the chin that ended the fight these were nearly incidental as it was Dempseys heart that won this battle and Sharkeys lack of heart lost it.

 

Called out? He beat him three times. The only time they fought at heavyweight, he beat up Greb.

How the hell does one win over Tunney at 175 and three losses including a bad loss in their only fight at heavyweight, make Greb the top heavyweight contender?

It doesn't and he wasn't.

If he was the top heavyweight contender and I'm wrong, show me. When did he surpass Wills as the top heavyweight contender? Hell, when was he rated the number-two heavyweight? Or the number five heavyweight?atsch

Stop.

 

Yes you really should. Tunney beat Greb clearly twice. The first was a clear Greb win, the second was a highly disputed Tunney win which the majority of observers thought was a robbery, the third was a Tunney win, the fourth was either a draw or a Greb win, and the fifth was a Tunney win. Ergo, he did not beat Greb "over and over again".

Why do you keep going on about ratings? I asked who did Dempsey fight that was better than Greb. You named Tunney, whom Dempsey fought in 1926. He won the title in 1919. Tunney wasn't even a factor in the division for most of Dempsey's reign. What about 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923? Were Carpentier, Miske, Brennan and Gibbons better and more deserving than Greb? If you think yes I'd have to ask on what basis. The only fighter who clearly was is Wills, and of course Dempsey didn't fight him either.

 

No one was rating in 1922, so how do you know?

If he was the #1 contender, he would have been in 1922,

but also isn't the real issue if he was the #1 white contender, as Dempsey wasn't going to fight Wills.

Wills

1-2-1922 (Wills loses on a foul to Tate-LF 1)
1-6-1922 (Wills draws with Tate-D 10)
1-17-1922 (Wills beats Langford-W 10)
3-2-1922 (Wills beats Norfolk-KO 2)
6-29-1922 (Wills beats Clark-KO 2)

Greb

11-4-1921 (Greb beats Weinert-KO 5)
3-13-1922 (Greb beats Gibbons-W 15)
5-23-1922 (Greb beats Tunney-W15)

Here are the odds in Dempsey's title defenses*

Willard vs Dempsey--Willard 6-5
Dempsey vs Miske--Dempsey 7-1
Dempsey vs Brennan--Dempsey 4-1
Dempsey vs Carpentier--Dempsey 3-1
Dempsey vs Gibbons--Dempsey 11-5
Dempsey vs Firpo--Dempsey 3-1
Dempsey vs Tunney--Dempsey 11-5

*from the 1976 Ring Record Book, page 117

So in 1922 Greb defeated the two men who were considered Dempsey's toughest defenses.

 

"Tunney beat Greb over and over again. He proved he was better in the ring. He proved he was better than Gibbons and Carpentier , too, when he stopped them."

Tunney also proved he was better in the ring than Dempsey, beating him in both their fights.

If you fall back on the Dempsey was aging excuse, you have to admit it was true for Gibbons also, and even to an extent for Carpentier and Greb,

(although I think Tunney beats Carpentier any time. A younger Gibbons might have given him a tough fight)

Bottom line here is that Greb did better against Tunney than Dempsey did, which makes Tunney a poor reed to stand on if the issue is where Dempsey should be placed as an ATG.

 

Greb was not on the radar of boxing fans prior to his bout with Gibbons. A poll the day of Grebs bout with Gibbons in 1922 asking the public who they wanted Dempsey to fight next did not mention Grebs name. Willard, Brennan, Wills YES but no Greb. The only question that remains is how much did the lay public want Greb to fight Dempsey AFTER he beat Gibbons. Certainly Sportswriters wrote about it but was this a match the paying public wanted? Prior to 1922 the answer is NO.

 

Has anyone really taken a good hard look at Wills fighting? The clips I have seen it's obvious he was open for Dempsey's best shots left hooks, right hands. He wasn't a boxer with a jab, he was a mauler, he had no outside game at all. How anyone seeing just this bit that is available that is there Wills shows nothing, a stiff arm jab, a half ass inside right upper cut. Even Madden hit Wills with a left hook that twisted Wills head. Jeez what are we talking about here. I know Wills was 37 yrs old when Uzcudon fought him. Look at the 1924 Wills and the 1927 wills, he does the same things and looks the same. Wills was a health freak who took care of his body, didn't drink or smoke. At 37 he was probably in better shape then Dempsey at 31.
Dub, is right, if you want a hint of what Dempsey would have done to Wills, check out the Uzcudun fight. Look close at the 1924 version of Wills and the 1927 version, no change at all Wills was hittable more then Dempsey. Dempsey also knew how to fight big tall guys, Wills wouldn't have been able to handle Dempsey's, speed, power, or his attack. Anyone with a practiced eye can see this.

 

"Wills was hittable more than Dempsey"

Sharkey stood toe to toe and made Dempsey's head look like a buoy in a hurricane. Wills might well have been too far gone to do the same but who knows, and he certainly punched harder than Sharkey.

 

Yeah let's just put on a video of a 38 year old Wills losing to a much younger contender and pretend it's Dempsey destroying a prime Wills. What was Dempsey doing at that age? Oh yes he was getting beaten up by King Levinksy in an exhibition and at 31/32 he was getting beaten up by Tunney and Sharkey.

 

Dempsey knocked Sharkey OUT and he came within a hairs breath of doing the same to Tunney.