Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

What the hell? Are you seriously that confused or are you just being a jerk?

I didn't say Gene Tunney was the top contender in 1919, 1920 and 1921.

Harry Wills was the top heavyweight contender in those years. Harry Wills was the top heavyweight contender during most of Dempsey's reign.

DEMPSEY SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT WILLS.

The top heavyweight contenders in the decade of the 1920s ... guys who reached the top contender spot ... were Wills, followed by Tunney, followed by Sharkey.

In the decade of the 1920s, Dempsey fought two of those three number-one contenders.

Harry Greb was never the top-rated heavyweight contender. Ever.

If you want to focus on 1919-1921, when did Greb beat Wills? When did Greb beat Langford? When did Greb beat Willard? When did Greb beat Jeanette? When did Greb beat Firpo?

He didn't.

He not only didn't beat them, he didn't fight them. Greb wasn't even a heavyweight. He certainly wasn't one of the two most deserving or "most dangerous" challengers to Dempsey (which someone on here said).

 

This whole Harry Greb argument is ridiculous.

Look, Deontay Wilder is the WBC champion. Alexander Povetkin is his top, number-one contender.

Wilder defended his title against Eric Molina. People said Eric Molina was undeserving of a title shot because he got knocked out in one round by Chris Arreola.

All that's true. They were right.

But that doesn't also mean that Chris Arreola deserved a title shot because Eric Molina got one.

It doesn't mean Chris Arreola was "cheated" out of a title shot.

It doesn't mean Chris Arreola deserves a shot more than the top contender Alexander Povetkin.

And it certainly doesn't mean Chris Arreola is the "second most dangerous or deserving" challenger.

It just means that Wilder probably shouldn't have fought Molina. That's all.

If, after beating Willard, Jack Dempsey had:

* defended against two holdovers from the Johnson/Willard era like a Joe Jeannette and a Sam McVea,

* and had Demspey then faced some legend like Sam Langford,

* and then Dempsey faced his number-one challenger Harry Wills,

* and then Dempsey faced someone like Firpo (and they had their wild fight),

* and then Dempsey faced George Godfrey in a tuneup for Tunney,

* and then Dempsey faced Tunney ...

* and then Dempsey faced Sharkey and then Tunney again ...

Had Dempsey faced Willard, McVea, Jeannette, Langford, Wills, Firpo, Godfrey. Sharkey and Tunney ... all top, dangerous heavyweights ...

NOBODY in the freaking right mind would be saying little, soft-punching, one-eyed middleweight Harry Greb was the MOST DANGEROUS CHALLENGE to Dempsey.

Because that would be insane ... and it's INSANE NOW.

Wills, Tunney and Sharkey became the top contenders in the decade. Dempsey fought Tunney and Sharkey. HE should've faced Wills. Instead, Dempsey fought some guys who probably didn't deserve a shot at all.

But there were a helluva lot heavyweights out there far more dangerous and far more DESERVING than freaking Harry Greb. A lot more.

So stop this nonsense. Because that's all it is. Good night.

 

I know what he was doing that year Wills was stopped - knocking out Jack Sharkey and putting Gene Tunney on his butt.

Wills deserved a title shot for years. Had I got one, I think Dempsey would've won. But fans should've gotten a chance to see it.

 

Yeah, he knocked out Jack Sharkey with a well placed blow to the ***** and knocked down a Tunney who had beaten Jack for 16.5 rounds and got up and resumed beating him for the rest of the fight including the round he was knocked down in and proceeded to knock Jack down as well. I wouldnt be bragging about a 31 yr old Dempsey but I do find it strangely hypocritical and disingenuous that his nuthugging brigade love to talk about how shot he was when he fought Tunney at an age most HWs are still considered well in their primes and yet theyll take a film of a 37 year old Wills dominating a guy Dempsey went life and death with and pretend we should look down on him. :-(

 

He knocked out Sharkey with a well placed left hook to the chin, according to Dempsey,Sharkey the referee, and my own eyes. F8ck me, there is one book I am actually glad I don't own.

 

But, Dempsey didnt defend against any of those guys. Instead he defended against a bunch of guys that little one eyed Harry Greb had either beaten or were too scared to fight him (as was the case of Firpo and Carpentier).

Lets look at some of the other names you bandied about in your fantasy of what Dempsey coulda shoulda woulda done:

Joe Jeanette: had just three fights after Dempsey won his title and won only one of them. That lone win? An inconclusive DQ over Bartley Madden who hadnt had a fight in the six months since Greb dropped him, cut his face to ribbons, and dominated him. Jeanette was not a better challenger for Dempsey than Greb.

Sam McVey: had just 8 fights after Dempsey won the title and managed to win only three of those against poor competition.

Sam Langford: Langford had a ton of fights after Dempsey won the title but was he a better challenger than Greb? The VAST majority of those wins came over the usual chitlin circuit suspects and most would agree that Sam was a spent bullet by this point with little more than guile and a punchers chance.

Wills: Its not even debateable that he was Dempsey's #1 and deserved a shot before anyone, Greb included, that being said if you are going to draw the color line then Greb comes next.

Firpo: Im a little mystified by this. Rickard did a masterful job steering Firpo away from anyone who might remotely beat him. Promoters tried on two occasions to get Firpo to fight Greb and Firpo refused. On one occasion he offered to fight a guy who had lost by KO on one of his undercards instead of Greb, thats how ridiculous the Firpo con was. How did Firpo gain his title shot to begin with? By beating three guys Greb had already dominated and Jess Willard who had partaken in one fight in the last four years and had won only one fight in the last 7 years....

Godfrey: Ive never really understood the Godfrey love. His place as a possible contender, ahead of Greb is a joke. He didnt pro until 6 months after Dempsey won the title. Had beaten nobody of note until 1925 when after his third try he finally beat Jack Renault who Greb had dominated and beaten twice including scoring a knockdown. Later that year Godfrey beat former amateur champion Martin Burke but Greb had already dominated Burke the year before winning every round. Godfrey was panned by the critics in this second fight. He also knocked out Fulton but by 1925 that meant nothing and Fulton promptly retired afterwards. The following year Godfrey lost to Chuck Wiggins who Greb owned in their multifight series. Godfrey never did anything during any part of Greb's career to be considered a better contender at any weight.

Tunney: Didnt become a top contender until Greb's star had faded. He never once asserted his dominance over Greb until early 1925 and only got his title shot by beating Carpentier and Gibbons at the tail end of their careers. One fighter who Greb had already dominated years earlier and another who was so petrified of Greb that he passed up an ENORMOUS payday to face and opted instead to fight for one tenth that purse against a lesser opponent.

Likewise Sharkey didnt emerge as a contender until the very tail end of Dempsey's career. Indeed Greb was for all intents and purposes retired when Sharkey was named a contender after beating Godfrey and Wills. In 1924 Sharkey was knocked out by Romero Rojas who Greb dominated easily the following year. That year Sharkey was also dominated by Charlie Weinert who Greb had absolutely brutalized three years earlier. In 1925 Sharkey won a very controversial gift decision in his hometown over Jack Renault who Greb had already beaten twice and lost again to Weinert.

So no, for the vast majority of Dempsey's reign none of the men you listed could be considered more deserving of a shot at Dempsey or even better contenders. You can attempt to come up with better names than them but youve already failed miserable with this list, which itself doesnt explain why if Greb was so pathetic as a HW challenger Dempsey (and his fans) find it acceptable that he feasted on Greb's leftovers.

 

Oh bull****. I suppose Sharkey was just so out of it that he was crawling around grasping his nuts because he didnt realize they werent his chin...

The referee had to cover his ass, Dempsey always twisted the story to suit him, you either need glasses or shouldnt be spending so much time in those pubs you like to frequent, and maybe you should stop putting words in Sharkey's mouth:

By JACK SHARKEY
Who Was Knocked Out by Jack
Dempsey in Seventh Round
New York, July 21—Dempsey
won that fight by hitting me with
a foul punch in the seventh, that
is how he did it It wasnt the
first low punch he hit me during
the fight. He hit me six or seven
others. I didn't raise a yell about
them, but when he nailed me in
the seventh way below the waist
well, I put in a kick to the refe
eree.
And while I was doing that
Dempsey hit me on the chin—and
dropped me. But it was the low
punch that weakened me and
really sent me down. I heard
them counting me out, all right
But when I got up I supposed they
would disqualify Dempsey and
give me the fight.
But. well, I'll never live long
enough to get over the surprise
of finding they gave the fight to
Dempsey.

And thats what anyone who isnt drunk off his ass can see. Dempsey fouled repeatedly as he always did and clipped Sharkey when he turned to the ref. Sharkey is crawling around clutching his nuts tighter than you clutch Dempsey's, not his jaw.

 

Let's see Sharkey fought 11 times from 1926 till he fought Dempsey. Dempsey fought what? One time in 1926 after not fighting for three yrs before that. Sharkey was 24 in his prime, Dempsey was 31. Any half ass trainer, then and now can tell you that the younger man who has been active and in his prime would be sharper. Of course he would hit the inactive fighter more, it's not rocket science. Dempsey simply did what all good veteran's do and that is take the youngster into deep water. For example, two fighters you might know in a fairly recent fight(4 1/2 yrs ago) a hard charging unbeaten puncher David Lemieux and veteran Marco Antonio Rubio. Before you say anything I was Rubio's advisor. That was the plan take the kid into deep water. To be fair I cant say that was the plan Dempsey had. But the wisdom then and now, when facing a younger faster guy let them shoot their wad and then come on. And from some posts here that had Dempsey coming on, that seems to fit.

 

I know you can care less what I or anyone else thinks, but jeez posting a piece by Sharkey is as bias as it can get. The punch that put him down was the hook to the jaw. You seem to pick and choose what fits your "facts":rofl Then you bully people with your snide remarks. Maybe it's you that needs to view the tape again. Dempsey, before the ko, had Sharkey in pain first from a clear right the body you can clearly see was above the belt, Sharkey sagged from the blow, he sagged again from a left uppercut. The last right to the body if you look you'll see Dempsey's elbow on an upward trajectory. Dempsey would have had to dip to really crunch him in the *****. You being a historian, would know that Sharkey was quite the actor. Sharkey plain and simple was getting killed to the body and yes Dempsey was coming on.

 

Oh please, all of that and nothing new, are you close to the bottom of the barrel, yet?

 

You are one bitter individual, so all you say is true and written in stone. Get over it, you might have written a book, which I almost bought thank you for saving me money. Your arguments are silly, your arrogance is what will not help you sell your book that took you ten yrs to write, that probably sold in the tens maybe that is the reason you are bitter. Greb and wills didn't get the shot whether they deserved it or not so please get over it. State your case without the snide remarks you do have valid points so let them stand on their own, without name calling.

 

The problem with this argument is when did one have to be the top-rated heavyweight contender to get a shot at Dempsey? Wills was and he didn't get one. Were Brennan, Firpo, Carpentier, Gibbons and Miske the top-rated contenders? I don't see how any of the above could have been rated above Greb when they fought Dempsey. If a Wills fight was impossible, as has been suggested here, then Greb was the next best challenger.

 

Add to the list that Krapton can't afford high speed internet. Anyone who can watch the film of the fight can easily see none of the three right hands were low. Anyone claiming those shots hit Sharkey in the ***** is a liar.

 

Reviewing my old news clippings another issue arose. Repeated references are made inferring Sharkeys reputation for claiming foul due to low blows.

 

I like how you continually pick out my posts to other people and imagine Im talking to you... Im not, get over yourself.