Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Seamus, Aug 4, 2013.


  1. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Is that all you can do is list a loss here and there ... so therefore they weren't the top guys?

    I can do that, too. Jack Dempsey lost in 1915 to Jack Downey. Jack Dempsey lost in 1917 to Willie Meehan. Jack Dempsey got KOed in 1 round by Fireman Jim Flynn in 1917. And he lost to Meehan again in 1918.

    Does that mean he wasn't a top contender when HE WON the title in 1919?

    You guys are draining. Everyone back then would lose occasionally. No decisions were everywhere. One paper said one guy won, another said another won. Rarely were any hands ever raised in the ring unless someone got knocked out.

    Which heavyweights back then were undefeated? None of them were.

    So who did you beat?

    Joe Jeanette beat Jack Johnson in a heavyweight fight in 1905. Yes, it was in 1905. But between 1905 and 1926 ... 21 years ... the only two guys to beat Johnson were Joe Jeanette and Jess Willard.

    So, yeah, beating Jack Johnson was a big feather.

    So was beating Sam Langford several times. So was beating Sam Mcvea several times. So was fighting Harry Wills to a draw a couple times. So were a lot of his wins while he was a top contender for 10 years or more.

    From 1916 to 1919, you're right, he was 0-5 against Wills, Langford and Norfolk. He was also 19-0 against everyone else during those years. In fact, he only had SIX losses in his last 51 fights from 1914 to 1919.

    How many losses did Dempsey have from 1914 to 1919 ... four?

    Yeah, six losses compared to four, Jeanette was clearly a mess by that point? :roll::patsch

    The guy spent more than a decade at the top. He went 5-1 (only losing to Wills) the year Dempsey won the title.

    Dempsey could've faced him in 1920 or 1921.

    But he didn't, BECAUSE Jeanette was black.

    Just like Dempsey could've faced his other top contenders in Wills, McVea and Langford, but he didn't BECAUSE they were black.

    That's all.

    Not because of their ages or their qualifications ... BECAUSE all of them were black.
     
  2. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You're draining. You're still going on about fights that happened YEARS earlier. You're still going on about fights that Jeannette didn't even win. You're still going on about Jeannette being a viable contender in years when he was RETIRED. Jeannette beat Johnson way back in 1905 and you think that made him a top contender 14 years later? Really? Marvin Hart beat Johnson in 1905. Guess Dempsey was ducking him too. :roll:

    I asked you to point out what Jeannette was doing that meant he was still one of the top dogs in 1919. Which recent big wins did he have? You came up with a loss to Wills and a couple of wins against journeymen. Nothing to counteract recent losses to Langford, Wills and Norfolk. Oh wait, Jeannette was still one of the top dogs because he won on a DQ against a guy who had just been beaten up and knocked down by a feather-fisted middleweight who was never a heavyweight contender. Right.

    Dempsey was 16 years younger than Jeannette. After a few early blips he established himself as one of the top dogs. He KO'd #1 contender Fulton, who had KO'd Langford. He lost one fight in nine years. He wasn't being upset by journeymen on a regular basis. Want me to pick out some Jeannette losses early in his career? He had quite a few of those too.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We could argue that Dempsey either beat every major contender, or the person who beat them.

    The sole exception being Tunney, who of course inherited the title.
     
  4. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Perry

    Thanks for posting this. I was wondering what this poll was all about.

    I think the key section--

    "Although neither Willard nor Carpentier were placed on the ballot, both fighters received a goodly number of votes."

    So there were names on the ballot given to the voters.

    I can't be certain, but Greb probably wasn't on the ballot.

    What stands out to me is that Gibbons, who was the favorite going in, had been a successful middle and light-heavy, but how much had he actually accomplished at heavy?

    *being that Gibbons did so well, one might draw the conclusion that Greb beating him decisively would put Greb pretty high on the list.
     
  5. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    At the time this newspaper service was similar to AP today. They were involved in 500 different newspapers across the nation.

    The discussion was not about Firpo. It's about Greb. This poll shows Greb was not on the publics radar prior to beating Gibbons in 1922. His name is not mentioned. If you have another poll that lists Greb as a contender for Dempseys title prior to him beating Gibbons please post it. Greb was not thought of as a serious title contender for Dempseys hwt crown by the lay public, the public that would buy tickets to see the fight, at least prior to beating Gibbons. Another point is that Fleischer never in any book I ever read of his wrote anything concerning Greb being a serious contender for Dempseys title.
     
  6. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes I could agree that after beating Gibbons in 1922 he was thought of differently by the public. As of this poll he was not on the radar in terms of the public wanting him to fight Dempsey for the hwt championship.
     
  7. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You know, I don't mind debating you, but when you say sh*t like "Why didn't Demspey fight Marvin Hart" ... you cut your own legs out from under you.

    Is Andre Ward a viable contender? Who did he beat THIS YEAR to prove it? Nobody. So why is he considered a top viable guy? Because of what he did FOUR YEARS AGO, that's why.

    Is Adonis Stevenson a viable light heavyweight? Who'd he beat this year to prove it? Any light heavys to speak of? Why is he still considered a viable light heavyweight. BECAUSE OF HIS WINS YEARS AGO.

    Because we live on a planet where what you have accomplished matters.

    In answer to your question, let's examine why Joe Jeanette was a has-been bum in 1919 (according to you) and why Harry Greb was such an awesome heavyweight in 1919 (according to you).

    What heavyweights did Jeanette fight in 1919 to make him (in your mind) a totally washed up, retired, has-been:

    Let's see, Jeanette fought one journeyman:
    * Bert Kenny

    Jeanette fought three ordinary heavyweights:
    *Bartley Madden
    *Tom Cowler
    *Clay Turner

    And Jeanette fought the number-one heavyweight contender/Colored Heavyweight Champ:
    * Harry Wills

    Jeanette won against all of them but he lost a decision to the top-rated Wills.

    What heavyweights did Harry Greb fight in 1919 to make him (in your mind) "the most deserving" heavyweight contender?

    Let's see, Greb fought two journeymen
    * Chuck Wiggins
    * George Davis

    And Greb fought three ordinary heavyweights:
    * Bartley Madden
    * Willie "Fat Boy" Meehan
    * Clay Turner

    And Greb fought TWO guys who would get title shots against Dempsey but nobody thought they deserved it:
    * Billy Miske
    * Bill Brennan

    And that's it.

    Well, let's see, the wins over the journeymen and the ordinary guys are a wash. None of them are anything to write home about and many of them are the same guys.

    And Jeanette lost a decision to the number-one contender Wills, while Greb decisioned Brennan and Miske.

    Could Jeanette beat a sick Billy Miske and Brennan in 1919? IMO, sure. Why not. A middleweight did.

    Could Greb beat Harry Wills in 1919? IMO, no.

    So, if we're looking at just ONE YEAR in 1919, Greb is basically equal to the guy who you call the washed up, retired heavyweight.

    Good for Greb.

    However, since life isn't washed and everyone starts from scratch each calendar year ... and we do all live IN THE REAL WORLD ... and what you have previously accomplished does matter ...

    If we add in all the big heavyweight wins they notched in their careers up to 1919, you add names like Jack Johnson, Sam McVea and Sam Langford to Jeanette's list along with a decade-long rung as a top heavyweight contender.

    And you add - basically nobody - to Greb's. Because, by 1919, a sick Billy Miske and Bill Brennan were the best heavyweights he'd ever defeated.

    And beating a sick Billy Miske and Brennan a couple times isn't the same as beating Jack Johnson, beating Sam Langford multiple times, beating Sam McVea multiple times, etc., and remaining at the top of the heavyweight class for more than a decade.

    Greb's "rep" at heavyweight is based on wins he has over guys who didn't deserve a shots but got them because blacks were denied.

    Jeanette's rep is based on wins over those denied black guys.

    Even in Greb's BEST YEAR AS A HEAVYWEIGHT in 1919 isn't much better than an aging black fighter in his final active year near the top.

    I've said it before and I can't stress it enough. Harry Wills was the top contender and the most deserving.

    But Langford, Jeanette and McVea were also deserving and legit contenders when Dempsey won the title. (They weren't at the top forever, but they were when he got there.)

    Beating a sick Miske and Brennan doesn't trump what all those other heavyweights accomplished. Beating a thousand welterweights and middleweights doesn't earn you a heavyweight ranking. Beating the best heavyweights does. And those guys I mentioned had all scored big wins over the best heavyweights.
     
  8. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't mind debating you either, but you open yourself up to such responses when you try and pass off a victory over Jack Johnson in 1905 as having any kind of relevance to Jeannette's standing in 1919. Hart was only three years older than Jeannette. Hart's win over Johnson carried more importance than Jeannette's did. Hart had as many fights in 1920 and 1921 as Jeannette did, two years you've said Jeannette could have fought Dempsey. And I don't want to hear any nonsense about Hart being retired.

    Firstly, I never said Greb was "the most deserving" heavyweight contender in 1919. I never said Greb was THE top contender at any point. Over Dempsey's reign Wills was number one, Greb was number two. Greb's best claim was in about 1922. Miske, by the way, was a legit contender when Greb beat him, so bringing him up undermines your argument. His illness was diagnosed in late 1919. And yes beating Bill Brennan four times in 1919 did more for Greb's standing that year than Jeannette's wins over Jack Johnson back in 1905, or Sam McVea in 1909, and otherwise failing to beat any contenders of note.

    I asked you to name which top fighters Jeannette beat after 1915 to retain his top contender status. You've not come up with any. Did Jeannette fight Miske? Or even Brennan, Wiggins, Meehan or Greb? Nope, he just lost or drew with every recognizable top contender he faced after 1916. His best win of 1919, according to you, was a DQ win over a guy just thrashed by a middleweight, who according to you wasn't a contender anyway.

    You're giving Jeannette credit merely for being a famous name and perennial opponent of Johnson, Langford and co who was unjustly denied a title chance in his prime many years earlier. His last wins over any of them were many years earlier. His last win over anyone of importance in the division was many years earlier. He was not a legit contender in 1919. No one regarded him as such, no one was calling for that fight or putting up big money to stage it (as was the case with Wills and Greb) He was old, finished, and he seems to have agreed given he retired after 1919.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You don't actually have a valid argument.How dumb is that?
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jeannette beat Johnson on a debateable dsq in a fight in which he was getting the worst of it. It was the only time in7 tries that he beat Johnson. That was 14years before Dempsey won the title.
    "Beat Langford and McVey several times?"

    Jeannette beat Langford just twice in14 fights one of them in1905 when Sam weighed around 150lbs . The second and last win over Sam was in1915 4 years before Dempsey won the title.Langford subsequently beat Jeannette in both1916 and 1917.

    Jeannette beat McVey twice in 5 fights .

    Aren't you the guy telling people to do their research?:patsch
    Neither Jeannette,Langford or McVey were contenders of any kind, let alone top ones during Dempsey's reign.

    No amount of bluster, balderdash, and bullsh*t is going to change that fact.
     
  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Down with democracy then !
     
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Off topic, but my memory goes back to Harry Truman as president and the likely nominees of both parties next year could be the very worst in my lifetime in my judgment.

    Maybe I'm just getting old and crabby, but man it seems to be going downhill fast and far.
     
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    From a non-American voice here, I will say : the world doesn't really want another Bush or Clinton !
    Believe me, we get full coverage of your elections over here in the UK, almost as much as our own. And for the 2008 campaign, I seem to remember Obama actually campaigning in Germany. :lol:

    Donald Trump would bring America down to Italy/Berlusconi levels of buffoonery.

    At this rate I'd probably vote for Vladimir Putin to be world president. :conf
     
  14. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The big three contenders of Johnsons reign from 1908 were Langford, Jeanette and McVey. By 1919 some 11 years later none of these men were on the hwt radar. These were hwt contenders from a different era. Still fighting but no longer considered prime contenders for Dempseys title. Wills however was from a later era than these three and certainly was a contender during Dempseys reign.
     
  15. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Gone Till November Full Member

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    DW-- Does this make Klompton a black racist too?