Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Great Falls tribune., April 26, 1922, Page 9, Image 9
DEMPSEY – WILLS FIGHT POSSIBLE IN
LONDON RING
British Sport Promoter Cables
Query for Battle With
Champion in England.
New York, April 25.—The possbility of Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills, negro heavyweight contender, meeting
in a championship contest in London this summer loomed Monday on the strength of a cablegram from George
McDonald. English promoter. According to Dia Dollings, English fight manager now in New York, he
received the following message from McDonald:
"Can you get Wills to come to London to box Dempsey?"
Wills, when informed of the cablegram. announced he would be "ready to depart on the first boat," but his manager offered no comment except to say he "could see no reason for leaving yet." Dollings did not indicate whether he had sought a definite answer to McDonald's cablegram. Dempsey, so far as is known here, has not signed articles for any match in connection with his present tour of Europe, although he has announced his willingness to meet Carpentier in a return engagement or any other European contender.

 

The Washington times., November 11, 1922, HOME FINAL EDITION, Image 19
SID MERCER’S CLOSE-UPS
SHERBROOKE IN RUNNING
The bustling little city of Sherbrooke, Canada, not far from the American border in the Province of Quebec has visions of entertaining Jack Dempsey, Harry Wills and 50,000 American and Canadian boxing fans some day next summer. A number of live sportsmen in New York are ready to underwrite a big heavyweight championship match and if Wills cannot be secured they are willing to make Dempsey a flattering offer to meet any other opponent who figures to have a reasonable chance with him.
Boxing is flourishing in the Province of Quebec. Two or
three good programs are offered
weekly by clubs in Montreal, one
of which is said to be controlled by Tex Rickard. At least some of the boxing talent is booked by the Madison Square Garden promoter and Tex's name is featured
quite heavily in the publicity. The French, who outnumber the English-speaking peoples in
Quebec, are good patrons of the sport. Ringside announcements are made in both languages. The
Canadians are anxious to get a big heavyweight match up there.
Montreal promoters nibbled at (the Dempsey-Will bait last summer and are willing to do so again.
It is said that the Canadian Pacific Railway is interested in a project to engage Dempsey for a bout either in Montreal or Sherbrooke. The latter city is convenient by railroad to Boston, New York and Montreal and by
motor from the American border.

 

Great Falls tribune., January 29, 1922, Page 10, Image 10
Dempsey Versus Wilis
Bout Appears Certain Following Big Offer
Brady Holds Best Pair Against Rickard in Game of Promoting Next Big Match With
World's Champ.
By SPARROW M'GANN.
Special Correspondent of Great Falls Tribune
Copyright 1922 by The Great Falls Tribune
New York, Jan. 28.—Jack Dempsey versus Harry Wills. That is the prime subject in fandom today following
Jack Kearns' statement that he was ready to match his champion against any fighter in the world. Wills included, provided the promoter would meet hs terms, and the sensational $200,000 offer for the fight made by William A. Brady. Today you may picture Rickard and Brady as seated opposite each other in a poker game. Brady holds a pair, Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills. Rickard also holds a pair. Jack Dempsey and Bill Brennan. If it comes to
a show down, on the hands as they stand, who do you think will take the pot? Right the first time. The money
will go to Brady. This seems so clear that no one looking on at the game has any idea that Rickard will stand
pat. He will draw or may be he won't play the hand at all. He may draw Brady aside and say: "Look here, let's play your hand together." Next Big Fight With Wills Or, again, he may pull Brady's blackface card out of his hand while Brady isn't looking. Whatever happens, it is not a bad prediction to say that the next big heavyweight championship battle will find Dempsey and Wills in
the ring together. Tex Rickard has always wanted to promote a Dempsey Wills bout. He has always said that
these two heavyweights appear to be the only men in the country who could put on a battle worth paying big money to see.
But Rickard has been afraid of the bout because of the color. His opinion has been that the public does not favor
the fight because of the chance involved that the negro once more would again hold the world’s heavyweight title

Jack Johnson's career as champion, Tex believes, has made the bare idea of another champion of the same race generally repugnant even though it Is known that Harry Wills is far different type of a man than Jack Johnson.

 

Yes, Burt... your opinion certainly has merit, and should be respected. I didn't mean to re-open the Louis vs Ali argument, but simply used that fight as an example of how one's opinion often is related to the era you grew up in (first impressions). But yes, you could very well be right about Louis eventually catching up to and stopping Ali. That is certainly a possibility! I see it differently... but as said, we'll never know.

 

I first read the accounts of Greb sparring with Dempsey about 30 years ago when you were still wearing diapers.

And though you have a history of confusing them, sparring is not fighting.

A very fast middleweight can make a heavyweight look bad in a spar. Loughran did the same to a past prime Dempsey.In a real fight I would pick Demspey to take his and Harry's heads off.

The article mentions Gibbons beating Greb in1920 and being manhandled in the return .I am convinced that neither Greb or Wills would ever be capable of"manhandling" Dempsey.

In 1925 a 181lbs Tunney beat the p*ss out of Greb, and he never possessed the power the Mauler did.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I don't see a convincing case, based on his record during the time scale Seamus stipulated that Dempsey should have defended against Greb it was a no win situation for him imo.
If Dempsey had taken on Greb and after a few rounds of chasing him, caught up with him and administered a brutal beating he would have been given scant grudging praise in the press and the very same haters on here like Seamus, Klompy and apparently yourself would be saying," yeah but Greb was only a light hitting middleweight, Dempsey was expected to stop him". No retraction or reversal from me.
I laid out my stall on William Harrison Dempsey many years ago and I have had no occasion to change it.

 

solid post from mcvey,,, some interesting posts in this thread :bbb

 

Thank you:good

 

Yes the same as Jack Johnson. The poster Mcvey is such a tool. I post information and quotes on the topic. He ignores them and talk about diapers.

You gave dates. Mcvey then moves them further back and said Tunney beat Greb in 1925. Funny Tunney beat the **** out of Dempsey too. Yet Greb beat Tunney!!!

Dempsey did not!

Greb deserved a shot. So did Wills.

 

B, nice to spar with you. No ko punches landed...
B, what sells me on the prime Dempsey ASIDE from the vast amount of accolades lauding him as a great fighter was a few things I have seen of him on film which has astonished me.
Aside from the Willard fight filmed out of proper timing synch
by hand cranked cameras...
1-the way in the first round Dempsey goes on the offensive and REACHES UP to land a perfect left-hook on the 6ft 6" Willards chin dropping big Jess for the first time in his life. We all know a
punch should be thrown straight from the shoulder maximizing
power...And yet Willard goes right to the canvas...
2- In the Firpo bout, the two of them are in a clinch, and somehow the 187 pound Dempsey frees his left hand and
throws a volley of left hook/uppercuts so quick and powerful WITHOUT any punching room it takes your breath away.Never saw that before or since..
3- In the second round of the Firpo bout Dempsey lands a
one-two combo on Firpo, so quick and powerful flattening
Firpo, that you can hardly see the punches land even in slow
motion...Yes I know Firpo was a powerful clumsy puncher , but he was a bull of a man who goes down and out as if shot...
So these are the impressions Jack Dempsey left upon me and
multitudes of boxing fans that made him the greatest boxing attraction of alltime...A ferocious power punching heavyweight with the body speed of a middleweight. A RARE combination.
Check the films out posters, it cant hurt...

 

Here is two pieces talking about Dempsey - Wills, that should give you some insights into why or why not's of a Dempsey - Wills fight
Great Falls tribune., January 29, 1922, Page 10, Image 10
Dempsey Versus Wilis
Bout Appears Certain Following Big Offer
Brady Holds Best Pair Against Rickard in Game of Promoting Next Big Match With World's Champ.
By SPARROW M'GANN.
Special Correspondent of Great Falls Tribune
Copyright 1922 by The Great Falls Tribune
New York, Jan. 28.—Jack Dempsey versus Harry Wills. That is the prime subject in fandom today following
Jack Kearns' statement that he was ready to match his champion against any fighter in the world. Wills included, provided the promoter would meet his terms, and the sensational $200,000 offer for the fight made by William A. Brady. Today you may picture Rickard and Brady as seated opposite each other in a poker game. Brady holds a pair, Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills. Rickard also holds a pair. Jack Dempsey and Bill Brennan. If it comes to
a show down, on the hands as they stand, who do you think will take the pot? Right the first time. The money
will go to Brady. This seems so clear that no one looking on at the game has any idea that Rickard will stand
pat. He will draw or may be he won't play the hand at all. He may draw Brady aside and say: "Look here, let's play your hand together." Next Big Fight With Wills Or, again, he may pull Brady's blackface card out of his hand while Brady isn't looking. Whatever happens, it is not a bad prediction to say that the next big heavyweight championship battle will find Dempsey and Wills in
the ring together. Tex Rickard has always wanted to promote a Dempsey Wills bout. He has always said that
these two heavyweights appear to be the only men in the country who could put on a battle worth paying big money to see.
But Rickard has been afraid of the bout because of the color. His opinion has been that the public does not favor
the fight because of the chance involved that the negro once more would again hold the world’s heavyweight title

Jack Johnson's career as champion, Tex believes, has made the bare idea of another champion of the same race generally repugnant even though it Is known that Harry Wills is far different type of a man than Jack Johnson.
William Brady on the other hand was in the fight game when Joe Walcott, George Dixon and Joe Gans were
in their prime and their popularity in their day causes him to believe that the public would patronize a fight between Dempsey and a negro of their type, and so—having never forgiven himself for dropping out of the Dempsey-Carpentier syndicate—he wants to stage the next great heavyweight battle on his own hook.
It is doubtful if Rickard would sit back and let him do this. In fact Rickard today intimated that he would
wait until after Wills-Kid Norfolk battle and then have something to say, meaning of course, that if Wills stows
away the India rubber man in decisive manner he will make an offer for a fight. Since he has a lease on big
arena on "Boyle's thirty acres" in Jersey City, it would seem that he is in a better position to bid higher than
Brady or any other promoter. Brady No Slouch Still. Brady is no slouch when he is fully enlisted in a campaign. They don't make them any shrewder nor
any gamer either: Years ago in Reynolds hotel in Boston after a fight between Brady's man, Steve O'Donnell,
and Jake Kilrain, then an old man, in which O 'Donnell had made a miserable showing. John L. Sullivan encountered O'Donnell in the lobby and bawled him
out most unmercifully. O'Donnell, who at the time was only 21 years old, stood for it until Brady, then a mere
slip of a man, pushed him aside and gave Sullivan all that the ex-champion had given O'Donnell, with more to
boot Sulivan could have flattened Brady with one blow but Brady bluffed him out of the hotel. Brady entered the pugilistic game from the theatrical profession. He took up Jim, Corbett and was his manager
when he defeated Sullivan. Later he made a champion out of Jim Jeffries and then retired, returning to the play
producing field in which ever since he has been consistently successful. He has never promoted a big championship bout but he has all the qualities to
make a successful promoter.
William A. Brady Offers Guarantees of $150,000 and $50,
000 for Battle.
New York, Jan. 28.—William A. Brady, theatrical producer, has placed $50,000 in a bank as a guarantee of good faith in seeking to match . Jack
Dempsey and Harry Wills, negro heavyweight.
Brady said if he could bring Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, to believe in the success of the bout, he would
post an additional $150,000. Dempsey's share would be $150,000 and Wills would get $50,000.
Conditions would be the same as those under which the Carpentier Dempsey bout was held. Kearns said
he was considering the offer.

 

You posted an article that I had read before and there was nothing in it that I had not read many times over the years .

I said I had read that information in one form or another over 30 years ago,ie whe you were a small child ,hence the diapers. Which in England we call nappies.

I moved nothing.
When Seamus made his comments,I pointed out that Tunney thrashed Greb in1925.Seamus then said Greb was "done" then. He then stipulated 1920-1923 as Greb's years as a prominent contender for Dempsey's throne. .When I showed Greb's resume against good heavyweights during those 3 years amounted to Weinert,Madden and Renault, he put it back to 1919, when Greb had his victories over Brennan. It's not me moving the goal posts. Tunney beat a ring rusty Dempsey who had spent too many nights in starlets beds.
Just as Greb beat an improving Tunney who later filled out into his frame and administered a sound beating to the middleweight Greb.

Make no mistake, Greb may just have been the greatest pound 4 pound fighter that ever lived.That does not mean he beats Jack Dempsey.
Your logic, like your opinion is worthless.

I am especially glad you hold my opinion in low esteem, for myself I give yours less import than I would that of a bit of dog excrement on my shoe.

 

McVey,

You are an absolute idiot. If you read and remember ( two things you have issues with ) you'd see I pick Dempsey over Greb, but do feel Greb deserved a title shot.

You did move Seamus dates back. He did not say 1925, you did. Then you mentioned Tunney who Greb beat, but Dempsey did not.

I find your " I read this stuff " before you humorous. Did any of it change? A better spin in 25 years from now we might have new information. I'll be here to read it.

In addition Dempsey fought several men close to Greb's weight for title fights.

Carpentier was 172.

Gibbons was 175 1/2

Greb would be close to these weight had Dempsey given him the shot he deserved.

By the way Greb beat Carpentier who started out as a flyweight!

I'll add one more guy Dempsey could have fought in a title match. How about Meehan who beat JD twice. Why not clear up that mess as Champion?

 

The Bridgeport times and evening farmer., March 24, 1922, Page Page Fourteen, Image 14
Vote Favors Wills As Next for Dempsey
Fight fans throughout the country regard Harry Wills as the logical candidate to meet Champion Jack Dempsey, according to the result of a voting contest conducted by The Boxing Blade, a Minneapolis publication. The result of the vote fallows:

To Box Jack Dempsey:
Harry Wills 37.300
Tom Gibbons 30,100
Bill Brennan 19,400

To Box Johnny Wilson.
Mike Gibbons 42,400
Harry Greb 14,200
Dave ********* 11,100

To Box Jack Britton.
Benny Leonard 32,200
Mickey Walker 16,700
Jock MaJone 16,000

To Box Benny Leonard.
Lew Tendler 26,100
Charley White 22,400
Pinky Mitchell 7,600

To Box Johnny Kilbane.
Babe Herman 37,800
Andy Chancy 20,900
Johnny Dundee 8,000

To Box Johnny Buff.
Pete Herman 23,70O'
Midget Smith 15,500
Joe Lynch 15,400

 

I'll lay this out for you because I know you are reta*ded.

I made this post

"I'm more concerned with him not fighting Wills.I think Jack ko's both of them but Wills was the logical choice.By all accounts Greb found the 181lbs Tunney entirely too big and strong for him in 1925.
Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling varied only by rare flashes of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating attack. Tunney concentrated his fire almost entirely on Greb's heart and body, landing with deadly accuracy and telling effect. After a flashy start, Greb went on the defensive and let entire rounds go by without making more than a weak show of attack, without landing a decisive punch, even on those rare occasions when he undertook to do the leading." (Associated Press)

Wouldn't he have found the bigger ,stronger, harder hitting Dempsey an even harder opponent? "

Post made on10-39pm 10-07-2015.

Seamus' response to it..

"I don't think anyone is talking about Greb fighting for the heavy title in 1925. He was at the end of his rope by that point. The fact that he was able to still rack up such wins is quite amazing. I think we are realistically talking about a window of 1920 to 1923... beyond that it would have been a "career achievement award" for Greb to get a title shot".

Post made on 10-08-2015 at 3-37pm.
Now can you grasp that I made my post mentioning 1925

ONE DAY BEFORE Seamus made his 1920-1923 timeline?
YOU DENSE C*NT!

Now Harry Greb NEVER fought Georges Carpentier.

What any of Dempsey's challengers weighed against him is immaterial and irrelevant . The issue is Seamus' statement that Greb fought "many good heayyweights between1920 and 1923".
I have proved conclusively and irrefutably that he fought just 3 in those 3 years. Madden,Renault, and Weinert.

I have a suggestion for you.
The next time you have an urge to open your stupid, vacuous mouth ------------------- CURB IT!atsch