Jack Dempsey beats Sonny Liston

Jack Dempsey had back muscles like bruno samartino. Dont know where jack got him, but it helped him obtain his god given punching power.

 

1. We have to disagree on Patterson. He is a swarmer who didn't swarm. He tended to stand and wait and not let his hands go. Liston carried the fight to him. If Dempsey fights like that, of course he loses, but I think Dempsey moves around on the outside and then comes in fast, as he did against Willard. I just don't think Patterson is the paradigm for what happens to every other heavyweight.

2. "Firpo was nothing compared to Liston in terms of strength, power, and ability." Ability, yes. Strength and power? How do you know? Firpo was actually bigger and he punched very hard.

3. Against which opponent did Liston show this great inside fighting ability? Whitehurst described getting inside on Liston as fighting in the eye of a hurricane. He was really tough if you were on the periphery, but get close and you were okay.

 

Liston would kick Dempsey's ass. The old saying that Dempsey destroys and eats big fighters up is trash. Fred Fulton is not Lennox Lewis, Willard is not Foreman, and Firpo is not Liston. Liston would wipe the floor with Dempsey. Dempsey's title run consisted of beating up 170lb fighters like Carpentier and Gibbons. ****, when Tyson beats up Spinks he's just a light heavyweight. When Liston whups on Patterson he is too small. Dempsey is one of the most overrated all time greats.

Liston KO inside of 6.

 

Fulton and Willard not being Lewis or Foreman I think is not much of a point, as Liston didn't defeat Lewis or Foreman either. How does Fulton compare to Valdes or Firpo to Williams or Willard to DeJohn might be more reasonable questions.

 

Firpo was about 10x slower and much cruder than williams. we dont know about fulton, but on film valdez had a tremendous left hand jab and powerful two fisted punching attack. Willard to dejohn is a decent comparison except willard was 37 and way over the hill/inactive when he took on jack.

 

I like Dempsey by early kayo in a surprisingly easy fight.

Dempsey KO 3 Liston

 

I will tell you why. On Film firpo did not get any leverage into his punches, he did not torque his body into punches which you are taught at basic level in boxing gyms across america. he did not have good punching technique while sonny liston had excellent punching technique.

While firpo was bigger than sonny, sonny was in much better physical shape and is clearly the much stronger fighter which is more important. firpo was fat and blubbery, liston had physical dimensions of a superheavyweight.

a swarmer who didnt swarm? what about the way he swarmed all over hurricane jackson and archie moore? the way he smothered eddie machen for 12 one sided rounds?

he didnt let his hands go because sonny was just way to for him and he realized that early and painfully. in the 2nd fight he tried to let his hands go and it didnt work out well at all.

On film, he knocks down williams the first time in the 3rd round with a left hook on the inside. in the patterson rematch he knocks out floyd with a left hook that traveled no more than 6". sonny was so strong he tossed men around on the inside. nino valdez zora folley and eddie machen called sonny by far the strongest man they ever fought. i think sonnys strength is a big factor, hes arguebably one of the strongest heavyweights who ever lived. willie reddish called walcott and liston the two strongest heavyweights he had ever seen.

i dont think so because patterson tried that out and got owned with short hooks and uppercuts.

jack liked to stick his head out alot though when doing that something u never want to do vs liston, and dempsey never faced a big skilled powerful man with a 84" reach like liston. it would be a real challenge. like u said in another thread, dempsey when on the attack lets his gaurd down alot, he becomes vunerable to hit while on the offensive.

 

Liston had the look and he was powerfull but Jack hit hard and was fast...It would be a tough couple of Rounds but I see Soony going down like he did against 190lb Leotis, Jack would have to adjust to Sonnys jab

 

1. Dempsey lets his gaurd down while on offensive--Yes. And a good point. But, seriously, watch the films of Liston against Patterson. Liston comes forward throwing punches with his hands at his side.

2. Liston was far more skilled than Firpo and Firpo might have been an arm puncher, though not always. Firpo did not have a body beautiful but he was no Galento either. He was a pretty solid 216 lber in my judgement. It is hard to compare Dempsey to Liston because of the different rules, but Dempsey would come forward against Liston and he certainly could fight inside. Liston would have to be a lot more careful in going after Dempsey than he was with Patterson.

3. Liston faster than Firpo--This is certainly a blind guess given the quality of the films of Firpo and the difficulty of knowing if they are running at the proper speed. It is at least possible Firpo was the quicker man, but who knows? One thing is certain or at least very probable. Dempsey was quicker than either of them.

4. I just watched the fight with Patterson and the 2nd fight with Williams and saw no short punches on either.

5. Yes. Patterson did not swarm Liston. I thought he largely boxed Moore. Jackson swarmed him. Against Liston, Patterson was rather passive. Watch the film. It is target practice for Liston. In the first fight, Patterson actually grabs the rope, a rather dubious survival strategy. I don't think Dempsey fights this foolishly.

6. Dempsey did fight men like Fulton who had a good left and a reach at least close to Liston's.

 

1. It depends who is matched with whom, but Fulton at 27 might have been just plain better than the 35 year old Valdes. He was coming off a win over Langford and would lose over the next four years only to Wills. Valdes was losing to ordinary fighters such as Alonzo Johnson and Charley Powell.

2. Willard was much bigger than DeJohn and certainly managed bigger wins in his career. He was getting old, but DeJohn never was any more than ordinary.

3. Dempsey beat Willard and Fulton even more impressively than Liston beat Valdes and DeJohn.

4. Williams is certainly a ton more skilled than Firpo, but if he fights Firpo with that left down at his side, an upset might be a stronger possibility than you allow. I would actually like to see these two men fight.

 

Dempsey at his best could take the fight. His sheer aggressiveness and speed would be enough to throw Liston off for a while. Dempsey would need to keep it on the inside as much as possible, as he was the better in-fighter, and would be able to get more shots off faster and possibly with more power in close. He would also need to make sure he didn't charge in stupid, and use lateral and head/upper body movement as much as possible. If Dempsey could keep it in close, and evade most of Liston's big punches, I can see him winning. It's still a 50/50 for me, though. Both of these guys are in my top 5 head to head heavyweights of all time.

 

You're obviously biased. If you're going to disregard Dempsey's first round KO loss to Flynn, you might as well disregard Liston's to Ali. Neither one was legitimate, in my opinion. I don't think either one has a huge advantage in chin.

 

I'm leaning slightly towards Dempsey, but this would've been a hell of a fight. One of my favorite hypothetical matchups.

 

The 1919 Dempsey was vicious.....AND....Sonny QUIT on his stool against the light-hitting Ali in 1964...Jack by KO in this one!!!

 

That is an oversimplication, to say the least. You shouldn't pick one guy at his best and the other guy in a fight where he barely trained and was past it.

Try 1919 Dempsey vs. 1959 Liston.