Also. Once in the ring Dempsey said something came over him. Didnt matter if it was even sparring he always went hard. Alot of Philly and Detroit fighters were the same way. Dempsey may have taken it to another level though
Willard told the same story too though maybe he was broke too I don’t know. I don’t disbelieve or believe it. I’m not sold either way.
I tend to go with Seamus on the Dempsey reign, fairly long gaps between defenses from memory. the challengers: Gibbons, a rather nondescript fighter from the reports of him I have read over the years, beaten comprehensibly by Greb on few occasions, so not one of the ATGs of contenders. The challenge by Carpientier , was not considered at that time to be of any substance, sure Georges was. and remains a really good boxer, but to give away weight to Dempsey, and only with a slim chance his vaunted right would land squarely was optimistic , to say the least. By all accounts poor Billy Miske was in the grip of brights disease ( Kidney malfunction) at the time of the fight , and there was no secret made that it was just a payday for Billy's wife and dependents, after Miske had died ( which he did not long after ) so all in all, yea Dempseys fights and career after Jess, I would say did decline.
Hm. Not sure where you heard Gibbons was a nondescript fighter. He split 4 fights with Greb. Won the first two, one of them described as giving Greb the licking of his life, and lost the last two. One of those losses was an even fight after the 6th round then an electrical storm broke out with rain absolutely pouring down on both men. Hats off to Greb for being able to not only fight the rest of the fight but gain the upper hand in the action. Again, I'm not so sure of where you heard that. Carpentier was recognized as a fine fighter. To say that he was regarded as not of any substance couldn't be more wrong. He didn't fight at all during the war but in 1919 he came back with 6 straight knockout wins, 2 against great light heavyweight Battling Levinsky and one against the English heavyweight champion Joe Beckett therefore rendering him the heavyweight champion of Europe. https://oregonnews.uoregon.edu/lccn/sn83025138/1919-12-05/ed-1/seq-16/ Miske wasn't in the grip of brights disease. Not much was known about the disease back then compared to today. The medical community hasn't referred to it as brights disease in decades. Maybe almost 100 years. Had Billy Miske been legitimately suffering from the harsh effects of kidney failure he would struggle just to deal with getting out the door. No way he would be able to box successfully enough to earn a shot at Dempsey, knockout Bill Brennan, go the distance with Gibbons, Norfolk, and have several wins. I used to think that he was suffering from serious disease when he fought Dempsey and kept that thought for years but then I talked to a close relative that is a doctor and briefly learned the history of what they have known about kidney disease, medicine during that time period, and the fact that the sources about Miske still call it Brights disease tells me there's no way he was seriously ill. More than likely was a misdiagnosis and he died from something else.
Damn, just watched Dempsey Willard... what great footwork he had and speed.... in todays game if he bulked up to over 200 id give him a chance to kill most of these bums today
Gibbons had no real results at heavyweight, nothing to consider him a legit challenger. In fact, the bout he lost to Greb was considered an eliminator for the heavyweight title. He got the shot and Greb got the shaft. He was a very skillful and successful lightheavy but he didn't make a dent in the upper ranks. Carpentier is almost a complete fraud as a heavyweight. His biggest win in the division, if it could be called that, was 8 years before when he beat the laughable Billy Wells for what was considered the Euro heavyweight title. Jack was asked by Rickard to carry Georges such a mismatch it was considered. But Rickard and his gang of paid scribes sold the attractive narrative of war hero v slacker into a million dollar gate. Like much of Jack's career, this was a promotional victory not so much a fistic one.
Would you describe Gibbons as a nondescript fighter? Also if you might entertain this, if Harry Greb had received the shot at the title instead of Gibbons and Dempsey managed to decision him or even stop him would you consider it a good legitimate heavyweight title defense? I don't think the fight was so much a heavyweight title eliminator but more so a preliminary bout for Gibbons. "It was figured that Greb was all just a setup for Gibbons. As a matter of fact, preliminary arrangements had been made for a bout between Gibbons and Dempsey. In order to strengthen his claim for such a bout, it was believed that a decisive victory over Greb would greatly increase Tommy's popularity and create interest in a match with Dempsey." https://news.google.co.uk/newspaper...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1164,779357&dq=greb+gibbons&hl=en So it seems that Greb was intended to be used to build up Gibbons's bonafides rather than a legitimate title eliminator. So it wasn't much of a duck but rather a bad move to take on a middleweight and lose on the build up for a fight with Dempsey. In all honesty I'd bet that Greb, regardless of any sparring stories, wouldn't have heard the final bell against Jack and if he did it would clearly be Jack's hand raised. If you mean fraud as in he never weighed in as a legit heavyweight I'll 100% agree with that. The fact remains that Dempsey was bound by contract to fight Beckett if he beat Carpentier. Not only did Beckett lose to Carpentier, he was knocked out in the first round. On two separate occasions no less. Contemporaries were all fine with Carpentier fighting Dempsey and thought it was logical. Regardless of whatever the scale said.
You make some interesting points , as stated Carpienter was a fine fighter agreed, but from all the accounts I have read over the years, the fight ( like Seamus said ) was built up and over hyped by Rickard to increase the gate, not sure many genuine fight fans gave Georges much of a shout. I might have been a bit harsh on Gibbons on reflection, mind losing 2 fights to a middle weight doesn't enhance his resume ( mind you it was Greb ! ) As for Miske and Brights, I am only going by what I have read over the years , what else can we do ? your point about him fighting up till the Dempsey fight, and declaring he must not have been that unwell, from what we read ( here we go again ) didnt Gans fight the Nelson fights ( well at least the latter ones ) while ill with TB ? .
