Jack Dempsey openly stated he would not fight black challengers

Dempsey is like Liston in that he practically cleaned out the division before winning the crown. His advancement in punching, footwork and body/head movement techniques should also improve his rank. While Marciano dominated his era, he never fought any big powerpunchers, while Dempsey had his share in Fulton, Morris, Gunboat Smith, Firpo, among others. All this along with his unbeaten first round KO' percentage makes him def top 10 worthy. Certainly more overall top 10 material than Tyson,

 

First part is true, Dempsey had been tearing through the division waiting for his crack at the title. He beat several of the big names and contenders similar to Liston while Willard kind of just held the title hostage.

While Fulton did have power and was a pretty big guy, Dempsey knocked him out in the blink of an eye so it doesn't really tell us much as far as his ability to handle power from big men. The Firpo and Willard fights give us a bit more info. Really not sold on Dempsey being top 10 anything, he didn't defend his crown for multiple years, lost to the most scientific guy in his era twice (Tunney), and for whatever reason never beat the most outstanding black contenders (Wills). His talent and skill are all obvious just by watching the film, but he left several question marks.

 

"practically cleaned out the division before winning the crown"

How can Dempsey be said to clean out the division when he didn't fight Wills at any time, coming up or as champion, and Wills was the outstanding contender.

Liston never drew a color line.

Fulton, Smith, and Firpo were also beaten by Wills, and he also beat Langford and McVea. So Wills fought a lot more tough punchers than Dempsey and in the case of Langford, many times.

 

Dempsey did a better job on Fulton ,Smith ,and Firpo. Smith said he took the Wills fight solely for the boat ride.
Did Wills fight:
Gains
Godfrey
Renault
Miske
Risko
Maloney
Delaney
Rojas
Heeney
Gorman
Gibbons
Levinsky
Tunney
??????
Jeannette was 40 when he lost to Wills
Denver Ed Martin was 40
Smith was washed up
McVey was 36 for his last go round with Harry
Langford was blind in one eye for 8 of their fights, well overweight for 5 of them, 33 for 4 of them and 34 for another. Firpo was overweight and had hardly trained at all,having sacked his trainer.
Fulton was never the same after Jack used him for target practice.
You can make results jump through hoops to arrive at what result you want.

 

I always have to laugh when people say Dempsey did a better job on Firpo than Wills did. Dempsey was dropped three times, once going out of the ring completely, and was allowed to stand over Firpo and pummel whenever he got up defenseless. Wills dominated Firpo easily, knocking him down, wobbling with a jab, and never having to switch into high gear.

 

LOL, how many of those guys did Dempsey fight? Jesus, why is there always a double standard for Dempsey fans? If Fulton was never the same after Dempsey beat him then how does it explain Wills knocking him out twice in sparring years before Dempsey got ahold of Fulton?? Maybe Fulton was never the same after Wills. Its funny, youll use every excuse in the book for Wills' opposition losing to him but ignore that of the four men on the list above that Dempsey actually got up enough courage to fight Miske had just crawled out of his sick bed, Levinsky was working in the shipyards and hadnt trained for Dempsey, taking the fight for pocket money, Gibbons got his title shot by LOSING his title eliminator to Greb, and Tunney kicked the **** out of Dempsey twice... People living in glass houses should be more careful about where they cast their stones.

 

Didn't Wills knock Firpo down by hitting him on the break?
Wouldnt Firpo have been allowed to "pummel Dempsey when he got up defenceless?"
Didn't the same rules,or lack of them, apply to whomever Dempsey was fighting?

 

Dempsey fought 5 of them.
Martin ,Langford, and Jeannette were too old.

Was Miske just out of a sick bed when Dempsey beat him in1918?
Levinsky when he faced Dempsey in November of 1918 had already fought 5 fights that year.
Against
Brennan a Draw.
Coffey a Win.
Weinert a Win.
Madden a Loss.
Greb a Loss.
Turner a Win.
That's sixty three rounds of ring action in11 months. Less than 3 months later he fought Dempsey .Dempsey had not fought for 3 months either
Yet he was not in shape for Dempsey? Levinsky was 175lbs only a pound above what he had weighed for his previous fight with Clay Turner less than 3 months earlier.
Yes Tunney kicked the **** out of Dempsey ,and how long had Dempsey been out of the ring?lol

Glass Houses?
I'm not apologising for Dempsey not meeting Wills.I'm just saying you can make results say what you want.
Would you mind posting the source of Wills knocking Fulton down in sparring? Not that I think it important but it would be nice to read it,.
I would suggest that being ko'd in a real fight is slightly different to being knocked down in sparring.
Vitali Klitschko was knocked down by Travis Walker and Raphael Butler in sparring neither seemed to have any lasting effect on either his durability or his results.
Marciano was dropped by Toxie Hall in sparring for Cockell and wobbled enough for Goldman to halt sparring for the day I don't think that incident impaired his performance against the hapless Brit.
Jack Johnson, training for Ketchel was supposedly dropped by Gun Boat Smith,he sparred a further 6rds with 3 partners that day so presumably he experienced on permanent inconvenience from the occasion?

 

So Gunboat Smith was a big power puncher and Archie Moore wasn't? And Morris is a bigger puncher than Walcott? My take is Walcott was a more dangerous puncher than the crude Firpo.

 

Wills KO'd Fulton in a real fight.

As for Fulton being finished or something after the Dempsey fight, he actually went on a long winning streak up to and again after facing Wills.

 

The importance of a comma. I suspect he meant to say "never fought any big, powerpunchers". I.e. elite, <200lbs powerpunchers.

Btw, I rate Marciano #5 all time at HW and Dempsey #14. The purpose of this post is solely to point out I suspect what you read was subtly, but perhaps significantly, different to what was intended to be written.

 

You might be right, but Gunboat Smith was not a big heavyweight, unlike Fulton, Morris, and Firpo, or Joe Louis.

My take is that putting Smith on this list indicates he considered them big punchers in a way he does not consider Moore, Walcott, Charles, or Old Louis big punchers. Not that he is referring to physically big men who could punch in contrast to smaller men.

 

Waiting anxiously for your Dempsey book. Old Jack's reputation will be shattered like glass.
Maybe HBO will make a movie out of it with Peter Dinklage in the Manassa Mauler role.

 

You could be right too. He may have looked at Smith's height and assumed he was bigger than the likes of Moore and Walcott, but you're right Smith wasnt a big HW, he was lighter than Walcott.

Only one person knows which of our interpretations of his post is correct.

 

There Is a comment Dempsey allegedly made regarding Harry Greb losing his title to Tiger Flowers.
Let me dig it up.

" He was and I believe, still a great fighter but for the life of me I can't understand why he gave a negro a chance to take that title away from him" Welsh described this prejudice as Dempsey's "innermost secret".
Regis Welsh was the reporter.

From (The Fearless Harry Greb)
Bill Paxton.