Jack Dempsey v. Ike Ibeabuchi

Predominantly those experts who watched both men at the time felt Dempsey would beat Wills. That's all we really need to know.

 

I can say the exact same thing of you. Which fights of prime Wills make you think he would beat Dempsey?

I haven't watched any fights of prime Wills unless you consider the footage from Firpo, Madden, and Uzcudun prime. Judging from that Wills wouldn't have lasted. You famously like to **** on Dempsey for taking 2 rounds to knock out Firpo. Well guess what? Wills went the distance with him!

For all you know Wills was prime for those fights.

 

Another post that speaks volumes to your knowledge on the subject.

I'm waiting for you to get something right but I probably should make myself comfortable.

 

So you deny that Firpo went the distance with Wills and only lasted 2 rds with Dempsey...

Reality must be a very big pill because you sure as hell aren't swallowing!

 

OK, I'll play in the shallow end of the pool..

Here are some questions:

Was Wills knocked down by Firpo?

Was Wills allowed to stand over Firpo and hit him as he rose after he knocked him down in the 2nd?

Was Wills with only 6 more fights left in his career (minus a purely for dough comeback) at his peak or anywhere near it?

Was George Foreman better than Ali because he KO'd Frazier because he KO'd Joe in 2? Hell, was a sick and ready for the grave Miske better than Dempsey because Billy KO'd Brennan in 4?

 

The answers to these questions don't matter at all. They don't change the fact that Dempsey knocked out Firpo and Wills didn't. Wills couldn't knock someone out that you claim was a bum devoid of skill.

If Dempsey wasn't allowed to stand over Firpo, that doesn't automatically mean he wouldn't have been able to knock him out. You assume that if Dempsey wasn't allowed to do one little thing that the entire outcome of the fight would be changed. Dempsey had 3 fights left in his career. That doesn't mean anything. You have nothing to go on that Wills was past prime.

The difference is Frazier is an atg and Firpo is far from that.

Your argument is built upon a terrible foundation and is crumbling before your eyes.

 

Actually the answers do matter and the fact that you can't provide them speaks volumes on a subject already verified... namely, that you don't know sh*t what you are talking about.

You think Dempsey did better against Firpo (even given the fact again that Wills couldn't stand directly over his prey and hit again)? Perhaps you will continue your nonsense and argue against those who were ringside...

"Wills did not let Firpo lay violent mitts the way the Argentine did on Dempsey and he gave Luis Angel a far more thorough and convincing whaling than Dempsey dealt him... Wills carried Firpo for the entire twelve rounds and made a bum of him in every round." - Westbrook Pegler United News, 9/12/24

I'm not saying it would automatically have changed the result but it sure as hell would have leveled the playing field. And just to be on the level, Dempsey does at get out of frame for the first few knockdowns before looming over his downed opponent in subsequent KD's. Had Wills that advantage in his bout, things might have been over in Round 2 after his right cross landed.

I'm sorry you don't anything about Wills. You should read up. He's a fascinating fighter.

So, Frazier was an all time great because Foreman poleaxed him in 2? Do you even know what you intend to say?

 

Of course, that's the logical progression there; if they are competing in today's era, they are thus working out with modern day trainers and equipment. Correct? After all, Brown is having to compete against today's guys. To that I'd say, absolutely without question he'd dominate. I say that more him,.and some other transcendent athletes; who, during their time and with all the same techniques and equipment,.totally dominate the opposition. So, you look for that, but it has to be more, they need physical intangibles that would allow them to compete with today's athletes. Players like Cousey on the Celtics, or Franco Harris; they don't posses the speed, strength, power, agility, vision,.height,.dimensions etc etc. Jim Brown was by today's standards had excellent size and weight. He was an all American in track and Lacrosse, along with Football. Many consider him the greatest Lacrosse player ever. So that tells me, he's a transcendent athlete. Look at all the all time rbs... Smith,.Sanders, Payton etc, were any, or could they have been track All Americans? The answer is No, they weren't fast enough. Jim Brown was. He was like Bo Jackson before Bo. He was so dominate over all his contemporaries, the retired in his Prime, and yet people had to play many more games just to beat his records. So yes, you put Jim Brown around today, in his Prime, he'd still dominate.

 

They might rebut this citing his T&F times using old equipment passed onto them by second hand sources.

To loosely quote one of his teammates:
"If they had today's cameras back then.....oh my god. They wouldn't believe what they would see."

 

"Ready for the grave," is rather hyperbolic.
After being floored and ko'd for the first time in his career by Dempsey in Sep 1920 .Miske fought for a further 3 years, beating among others Gibbons,Brennan x2,Renault x2,Weinert,and Fulton in 23 fights with 1 inside the distance wins. He lost only one fight, to Gibbons.He sure took a long time getting ready!
Wills actually knocked Firpo down after the referee had ordered them to break. He did the same thing to Bill Tate and was dsq'd for it
Dempsey is criticized for not defending against Wills and there is no doubt that Wills deserved title shot.
How much of his lack of success in getting one is down to Dempsey is a moot point.
Imo, Wills did not do his cause much good by opting to fight what was described as, "a diet of well chewed meat".
There are quite a few names missing from Wills 20's resume.
Greb
Godfrey
Tunney
Miske
Renault
Gibbons
Maloney etc
The best two on it are Firpo and Fulton ,who lasted a total of less than 7 minutes with Dempsey.

http://fightfilmcollector.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-trouble-with-harry-harry-wills-vs.html

Fighting the likes of:
Floyd Johnson ,who was forcibly retired after their fight and who had won 2 of his last 11.
Homer Smith ,won 2 of his last 5 and a year later would be beaten by an ancient Jack Johnson.
Clem Johnson 8-10-2,won 1 of last 12.
Battling Jim McCreary ,8-5-1
Jeff Clark 36 years old, won 3 of last 13, he got two fights with Harry in the 20's!
Buddy Jackson,1-1-0
Denver Ed Martin, a relic of a bygone age,having his last fight,and now 40 years old!
GunBoat Smith ,having his last fight,[ he'd lost his last 3 by ko ,] in Havana " I only went down for the boat ride!"
Ray Bennett, 1-1-0.
Andy Johnson,2-5-0 He had lost his last 4,3 by stoppage!
Jack Thompson , who was in the middle of a 9 fight consecutive loss streak
Bill Tate 3 fights 1win .1 draw.1 loss .Tate was Dempsey's sparring partner
Is not likely to push your claims for a title fight!
Wills essentially sat on his laurels in the 20's,a tactic that badly misfired on him.
ps Wills was just 32 when he fought Firpo hardly an old man!
My own opinion is if Dempsey had defended against Wills it would have enhanced his standing significantly,big ,slow moving heavies were Dempsey's meat.

 

Dempsey did okay against Firpo. It was basically a street fight. Dempsey, (who was past his prime by then), said before the fight that he'd fight Firpo that way and he went out there and did it. Maybe a bit silly but it was entertaining. He had his scares along the way but he completely overpowered Firpo and had him KO'd within 4 minutes.
It's weird how negative people can be to whine about his performance almost 100 years later.

 

You mean the KD when he blatantly hit Firpo on the break ?

Wills fouled Firpo. Dempsey fouled Firpo. I'm sure Firpo fouled them both.

 

Ike to me is no mystery. He was the real goods .. size , speed, power, chin, skills .. I personally felt Too deserved the decision but it was very close and that was the best Tua that ever fought .. Dempsey was way too small for this guy, plain and simple .. he's be stopped. There is a reason there are weight divisions .. this is like a lightweight fighting a light heavyweight.

 

Dempsey's arms were probably longer than Ike's. He's probably no more than an inch-and-half shorter, if that.
Ike is heavier by about 45 pounds but Dempsey's record against bulky heavies is pretty solid.

Tua was landing punches on Ike with his stubby arms and a real deficit in height. Dempsey's likely to do better than Tua.

 

Ibeabuchi had fairly good skills developing for a 20-0 fighter, good stamina and was definitely strong. I'm not sure why he's been credited for having speed though. He's was typical of a heavyweight his size, somewhat on the slow side and easy to hit.