Jack Dempsey v Mike Tyson

Burt, with all respect you're delirious w regards to Dempsey. Enough with the cliches already ... if you had to bet your kids life on this fight you couldn't rush to the Tyson corner fast enough ... it's silly. You have a face first , 188 pound fighter who only knew how to storm out of his corner, who never threw a jab in his career , who only knew how to slug when badly hurt going up against a much stronger, faster likely significantly harder hitting man who has a proven record against much bigger, stronger and faster men ... styles make fights and this is a mismatch. A prime Tyson is survived by speed and movement .. almost no one could slug with him from the opening minute and win .. he was the most dangerous opening round fighter in history ... no face first fighter giving up size, speed nd power is going to survive him ... styles make fights and let's be real please ..

 

And Dempsey was going to use all 188 pounds to push the 218 pound Tyson back ... and talk about wide punches , evcer see Dempsey v.s. Willard ... if he could pull off what you claim he should be called Houdini ..

 

Being "delirious" as described by you I, with the help of Xanax and Jack Daniels, will try now to respond to your highness. I agree that Tyson was a
tremendous early puncher. No doubt... But he ,Tyson when he fought the first good fighters in his early career James Tillis, and Mitch Green, went 10 rounds with each without a ko. He fought James Bonecrusher Smith a 10 round decision fight also without a ko. At the young age of 24 he was kod by James Buster Douglas, and was never the destroyer he was when he started...So Dempsey at HIS peak who obliterated much larger men than Tyson, who could have bulked up to 215 if it was desirable, who had a longer reach than Tyson, who flattened 25 men in the first round, who was
a fast bob and weaver, and when in close quarters was devastating , does
not have a CHANCE with a Mike Tyson ? It is not me who thinks as little of Mike Tyson as you do with Jack Dempsey he. I have always said Mike Tyson was a devastating puncher , but if he is caught on the whiskers by a Dempsey onslaught Tyson goes for sure. Yes Tyson hit hard, but so did Dempsey and so did my man Joe Louis...With these 3 punchers anything could happen...
P.S. No he, I am not delirious but I am a hell of a lot more sober minded than you think. Adieu...

 

i like dempsey early in this one. dempsey will force it to close quarters and ko tyson. imo

 

Tyson is just a bigger stronger faster more powerful Dempsey, Dempsey isn't making it out of the first 3 rounds.

 

You don't know enough about Dempsey. He was the best short puncher ever in the hwt division. When someone talks about 6 inch punches with ko power it's Dempsey that phrase was intended. Tremendous ability to generate ko power in close with slight shifts to his body. All this with head, shoulder and body feints which allowed him to get in close. Because of the nature of the films it's hard to see his skills but they are there if you look for them through the silent film era footage. Everyone is so obsessed with size when in the hwt division it's the last thing that should be considered. Watch his fight with Firpo where he dismantled a much bigger potentially stronger fighter with.....short inside punches. Watch over and over the KD just prior to the ko. Dempsey weaves to mid distance, throws a feint which freezes Firpo in his tracks followed by his favorite combination....right to the heart and left hook to the chin.....both thrown extremely short. Unless you look for it you miss it simply because of the jerkiness of the film. Dempsey was a unique and highly talented champion and this is why he was rated the best hwt champion for 50 years. You don't get rated that highly by people who know what they are doing unless there are great ability to back it up.

 

Bravo H.
Some posters who think they know the man who was Jack Dempsey think that a Dempsey in a fantasy fight would not know of the power of a Tyson
and would not fight accordingly...They are obsessed with weight, weight, weight...Purely on the strength and toughness of an Al Palzer, a Carl Morris, a Fred Fulton, a Jess Willard, all who were bigger than Tyson,
[mind you not ability], Dempsey annihilated these men in the first round.
They fail to realize that Dempsey was as Nat Fleischer wrote was
"amazingly strong ", and had a trait of when he kod a man of whatever weight he would put his gloved fists under the arms of his kod victim and hoist them off the floor...And if Dempsey wanted to he could have easily fought at 215, as he had thin legs, but a wide, powerful upper frame.
Say what you want about Jess Willard, he was never floored before in his career, and what Dempsey did to him was a revelation. Try punching up to reach the chin of a 6ft6" giant as Dempsey had to do...Of course on the old hand cranked camera of that fight Dempsey had to throw way "up" to even reach Willard's chin...A keen boxing observer would detect this. Especially
when Dempsey was known as the greatest short puncher ever as he needed 6 inches for his punches...as a point of interest look at the old, rusty 32 year old Dempsey "long count" fight with Tunney, when in the 7th round Dempsey finally caught up with Tunney, and hit him with the fastest
7 punch volley, all on the button that you will ever see from a heavyweight.
And this 32 year old Dempsey after a THREE year layoff, was a shot ,
old fighter by then.
Cheers H...

 

Lighten up on the JD Bert .. for a man that has seen so much you sure simply choose to ignore styles when determining match ups.

Tyson was 19 when he fought Tillis, a 6'2", 215 pound experienced veteran who had fought and narrowly lost a title bout ... Tillis was a boxer w a punch ... he used mobility and ring smarts to survive a bout he still clearly lost. Mitch Green, a 6'5" former amateur star also managed to clutch and hold for dear live as Tyson dominated. The same can be said for former champ and giant Bonecrusher Smith who also hung on for dear life to survive. What was Dempsey doing at 19 other than fighting journeymen middleweights, losing to some and working at brothels ?

The reality is styles make fights .. Dempsey never, ever saw let alone fought anything like the Tyson that crushed Berbick, Thomas, Briggs, Tubbs or Spinks .. I love the Dempsey legend as much as the next guy ... I think he grew into a charming figure and a national icon of sorts in his post fight career ... that being said Dempsey might be the luckiest prize fighter that ever lived ...

He avoided many of the toughest contenders coming up. (Langford/Jennette/Wills)

He had one of the greatest managers and promoters working with him in history .. no one ever had more writers greased to build up such a myth ..

He ducked his number one contender his whole title reign.

He ducked the draft and got away with it, as if he was the only guy that had a family to feed. The other hundreds of thousands of men that did fight all came from money I guess.

He was the most inactive heavyweight champion in history yet still kept his title.

He should have lost his title by disqualification against Firpo as he was clearly pushed back into the ring but got away with it.

IF the first Tunney fight was the standard 15 rounds he would have lost by TKO or worse.

He very likely did hit Sharkey low in a very tough bout that could have went either way and won by hitting Sharkey who made a foolish mistake.

If the second Tunney fight was 15 rounds he would have lost by TKO or worse.

The Long Count was the greatest thing that ever happened to him, keeping him in the public spotlight for decades.

Personally, based on his inactivity post Willard, I have no idea how to rate Dempsey all time be as a cruiserweight let alone a heavyweight ... I think he had a ton of the tools but really never developed them to their highest level ... he definitely peaked in Toledo and lost ground every year following ..

Tyson was a lot more than a puncher. Tyson had a very solid amateur career and outstanding training from Teddy Atlas and Cus D'Amato. Tyson was a tremendously conditioned, brutally strong, lightning fast combination puncher with power and a chin proven against much bigger and tougher men than we have seen Dempsey fight on film ... can anyone imagine the Tyson that fought Berbick or Tucker fighting George Carpentier or a 37 year old Jess Willard ?

 

You can't compare the two eras. Tyson came up during a time where the division was diluted....numerous champions so that means fighters who should not be called champion were. So it was easier to win a championship...easier to get a title shot. Life in general was easy even for the those at the very bottom. Easier times where there was no real need to be truly tough.

The time JD came up through the ranks conditions were brutal. You had to be one tough son of a ***** to survive in general let alone surviving as a fighter. Dempsey was the toughest of the tough....no dog in the man, no bravado that when pressed shows itself to be false.

It was common with most of the champions who preceded Dempsey to take the title on the road....exhibitions, vaudeville, plays. Dempsey did the same and the new media was silent films.

Tysons issues as a fighter were between his ears. He was a head case. Always was as an amateur and pro. When he was pressed, losing rounds being roughed up he could not handle it. As an amateur when approaching a pressure fight he would cry like a baby insisting he could not win....this same self doubt was always there as a pro. It raised its head again later in his career. Fighters who could take Tyson deep would drown him. Don't believe we speak to Kevin Rooney or Teddy Atlas....I have and what I just wrote they concur with.

There is no Dempsey myth....a myth is not rated as the greatest hwt champion for 50 years. Rated by the best trainers of his time as the greatest. This is overlooked by many who want to change history. Do any great trainers rate those we all know were not all time greats as great fighters? Did anyone rate Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer, Carnera, Braddock or Willard, burns, hart as the best hwt that ever lived? Answer is no....but they all, from that era rated Dempsey at or very near the top. That is....experts...trainers, historians who were able to watch Dempsey live from ringside....something you or I or anyone alive today can never do rated him as not only a great fighter but the very best. Think about that for a second. There must be something you are not seeing that they did.

 

The myth is a myth ... Dempsey's career ended ten years before Louis' title reign began ... by the end of Louis' reign it's safe to say at least as many people thought Joe was the greater fighter ... as far as trainers go, for every Arcel who loved Dempsey there is a Jimmy DeForest, who trained Dempsey, who said Dempsey knew nothing about defense, cutting off a ring and would have been stopped by Louis in four rounds .. What performance do you say Dempsey deserves this all time credit for ? Please back up your words and point to it ... I say Dempsey is a perfect storm of skills ( underachieved ), promotion and era ... his inactivity post Willard kept him from ever developing into the fighter he might have been and ducking Wills hurt him terribly.

 

This should be fun. Give me your list of great trainers etc from that time period who did not say Dempsey was an all time great. I'll start with the following...you provide as many as you stated their were....

Langford stated Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen.
Arcel rated him along with Louis and Ali
Stillman rated him as the best hwt
Fleischer rated him in the top 5....best combination, the roughest, best left hook, best two handed puncher, faster than Louis.
Tunney rated him as the best

Please list four other than Deforest and I'll then list 5 more.

 

I do remember Ray Arcel, when asked if Dempsey could compete in the 70's with fighters like Ali and Frazier etc..claimed that Dempsey would have a "picnic". Eye opening to say the least. I think a finely tuned active Dempsey would be a handful for any ATG regardless of era, size, whatever. I'm not saying he would win but he would be competitive and I think it's a mistake to dismiss him.