Jack Dempsey v Mike Tyson

Jack Johnson would be the first logical choice.

 

Regarding Deforest here is what he stated about Dempsey in 1919...from the NYtimes....

"Jack is a remarkable fighter to say the least. In fact I rate him as the greatest heavyweight of all time. Never before have we had a hwt that can box like he and also deliver a punch that would fell an ox."

This statement was made during Dempseys prime as a fighter and while Deforest was in good mental and physical health. He died in 1932 after a long illness and in abstract poverty. I would take with a grain of salt anything he would have said during the last few years of his life....he was a very sick man during that time.

 

Johnson did not think well of Joe Louis either.

 

Jack Johnson preferred only those who shared his name.

Seriously, tho, for any sense of objectivity we need to rely on the estimation of those who saw both Dempsey and Louis... and there was plenty of them.

By the way, did Sharkey ever come out and compare the two? I did a cursory search for such an interview on a few sites but found nothing. I'm sure he was asked for a comparison on numerous occasions.

EDIT... Actually found a few things...

In 1946, Sharkey had this to say...

"Joe floored me nine times and Dempsey hit only once - while I was looking at a blond in the ringside. Every morning now, when I wake up, I stretch my jaw from side to side - because I can still feel Jack's punch."

Well, that sounds like total horse****, not least because Dempsey hit Sharkey in what we call "the lower solar plexus region" not the jaw. Sharkey never had a good thing to say about Joe, except some patronizing "he's a gentleman" type stuff. A bit of a draft there.

 

The discussion is not Dempsey vs Louis. I am sure there will be many on either side. Both were all time top rated greats. The question was those during Dempseys time who did not rate him as a great fighter. I've now listed 6.....deforest statement that Dempsey was the greatest hwt trumps by a wide margin statements made at the end of his life aS a sick man. Johnson did not like anyone,,,,including Joe Louis. Ive never read where Sharkey choose one or the other.

 

Does the Arcel quote I just read from 1942 saying the Louis was greatest trump what you have?

Getting back to Dempsey v Tyson, can we list their best victims for comparison

Dempsey:
Willard
Fulton
Gibbons
Carpentier
Sharkey
(note: I don't think he ever beat a healthy Miske over 10 or 15. I am too inebriated to check this)

Tyson:
Holmes
Spinks
Tucker
Thomas
Ruddock

Who do you think fought in a better era? (thus illuminating the worth to the claim of being the best in an era)...

 

Untrue. The ko blow was a single left hook to the chin...short and as powerful as they come.

 

The debate is not Louis vs Dempsey. Both are all time greats. Arcel rated Louis Ali and Dempsey as the best. I would not argue the case against any of these fighters...they were the best of the best.

 

Oh ****, you are correct. He hit him low, then on the chin. My bad, too many libations today. Carry on.

 

Arcel seems to offer, within a range of responses, whatever suits the occasion. I just looked at three different interviews with him. Even the interviewers, at these times in the 30's and 40's, comment that Arcel is cagey and elusive.

For what it's worth, I have Louis and Ali as #1 and #2. I have Dempsey somewhere around #12... mostly penalized by lack of depth on resume, inactivity and ducking his two top potential challengers.

 

If you watch the fight theRe is no real indication Sharkey was hit low. Dempsey was attacking Sharkeys body with great success. The last body blow appears to hit right at the belt line. Certainly not well below it as some claim. Maybe it could have been slightly low at best. Dempsey was brutal in close with those 6 inch shots thrown with all his weight behind them.

 

Inactivity was common for champions from that era and before so it's unfair to rate based on this. Again...eras that were incomparable in that regard.

You could make the case Ali ducked foreman and a second bout with Young. I was at ringside in early 1977 at a boxing show in northern NJ when Ali was introduced. Many including myself were yelling......when will you fight Jimmy young! Some were yelling....when will you fight Foreman! There are historical reasons fights were not made that are totally out of a fighters control. However if you want to apply this criteria you need to apply it to all...including Ali.

 

How can it be a duck when you already fought and beat both guys (as well as a who's who of heavyweight elite over a decade and a half)?

It's not as though Dempsey ducked a return bout with Wills or Greb. He ducked any initial bout.

 

H, Jack Sharkey said that" wherever Dempsey hit you he could break a bone."
He also said when asked who was a better fighter ?." W
ell put them both in a room and Dempsey will walk out ".
Max Schmeling who when young sparred with Dempsey in Germany several times, in his biography called Jack Dempsey "the very best ever ",and I believe he had a run in with Mr Joe Louis...
Lou Stillman who owned Stillman's gym called Jack Dempsey the greatest heavyweight he ever saw, and he saw them all from Dempsey up to his death.
Mickey Walker always claimed Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight.
And in the 1950s a poll was conducted asking veteran sportswriters who saw all the heavyweights from Willard on this question . "Who was the greatest heavyweight you ever saw "? By a VAST majority Dempsey came in as No.!...Were they less informed than some naysayers on ESB SIXTY years later ? I think not...
Now of course these esteemed sportswriters in Marciano's era never saw
Mike Tyson, but the high regard Dempsey at his best was regarded by these men, show that the Manassa Mauler would be a darn match for anyone including a Mike Tyson...Of course Mike Tyson was a tremendous puncher...Of course he looks great when young being filmed flattening
many fighters...But does his detractors have a hint of young Dempsey
obliterating big strong men as a Carl Morris, Al Palzer, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, Luis Firpo in record times on FILM as Tyson has ? Hell No.
These guys were not great fighters, but they were big and strong and
I will bet were as tough as Tyson's early victims were...Did all these big men just fall to the canvas from heart problems or were they the victim of
a young powerful hitting Jack Dempsey ?
I at least admit that Mike Tyson as a front runner was a tremendous puncher and could of kod a prime Dempsey, but I also think that a
PREPARED Jack Dempsey could also return the favor...
Dempsey was the real goods at his best ,and I'm in good company with my opinion...cheers...

 

They had not seen Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Wlad... I have.