Jack Dempsey v Mike Tyson

I just told you what was occurring early 1977....did you live through that era? Many many people felt Ali was ducking rematches with both Young and Foreman. The crowd at that arena that night mirrored the feeling of many during that time. Foreman was a prior champion who was clamoring for a title shot while many thought Young beat Ali the year before. Ali kept stating he was going to fight George again but he never did. Again if you want to rate based on that criteria apportion your ratings fairly.

My family were close to the Dempsey family back in the 40s/50s. My dad was a fight buff and visited all the training camps locally in the Penn, NJ and NY areas back in the late 20s and 30s. From memory he had stories concerning....Loughran, Tunney, Schmeling, Stribling, ...many others. One of his fav fighters was Isadora Gostenaga. Watching him spar Isadora would throw uppercuts literally from the canvas that would ko sparring partners. He had fond memories of watching Loughran spar....one time with Tunney! Anyway you get the picture. My dad told me he spoke with Dempsey concerning Wills and he absolutely insisted he wanted the fight to happen. It was Rickard/Kearns who wanted no part of the fight. Nobody wanted to give a black man a chance to fight for the championship. My father knew more about boxing in that era than anyone I ever knew and he never mentioned at any time a proposed bout between Dempsey and Greb.

 

S I am convinced that even if Dempsey fought and beat Harry Wills and
My man Harry Greb, you would still berate Jack Dempsey today...Dempsey in the eyes of some ESB posters, was the incarnation of Benedict Arnold and John Wilkes Booth... He was a product of his time as we are of our time. He came from a terribly poor childhood, struggled, met a Jack Kearns, became champ, went Hollywood to bang silent screen sirens, and lived a life of pleasure, not caring about what his detractors of today think of him 90 years later...He is villified by some on ESB as a coward who refused to fight Greb or Wills, but he had good reasons why he didn't fight those guys, and it wasn't fear...

 

H, a very interesting post concerning your dad. My dad was a fight buff who dragged me to Golden Glove bouts when I was a young whippersnapper.
And I have been collecting ring magazines from the 1920s and 1930s, and I can't recall any articles from those days mentioning a demand for a Dempsey v Harry Greb bout...But I recall articles claiming that Harry Greb
stated that " Dempsey after 5 rounds or so ,would kill me ". For what it's worth...

 

Burt, I well understand this. So is Mike Tyson a product of his time and environment.

And, Burt, he was vilified by many of those in the press,not on the Kearns/Rickard dole, for missing out on Wills.

**** happens. He was still a great fighter... just one who missed really delivering his full potential in my opinion.

 

Those are situations nowhere near analogous to the Dempsey duck of Wills, who had been his top challenger, in his prime, for 5 years. An old Ali, well past his prime, KNOCKED OUT Foreman. No one, in retrospect, is going to degrade his legacy because he did not pursue a rematch of a guy he already KO'd. Furthermore, he chose to fight Shavers not long after, not exactly like choosing Darcy or Carpentier.

I am jealous. That's some great, irreplaceable stuff. I believe the Wills duck was more the fault of Kearns/Rickard than Dempsey, but I also believe Dempsey had gone a bit soft and complacent. He preferred easy paydays, and who wouldn't coming from his background. I read several contemporary articles today explicit in this regard.

Regarding Dempsey-Greb... I have read more than a few articles calling for that fight. It's just obvious looking at Dempsey's title defenses... Darcy, Brennan, Gibbons, Miske, Tunney.. all Greb victims. Granted Tunney returned the favor at least once.

Fort-Worth Star Telegram, Nov. 30, 1920

"Floyd Fitzsimmons passed through South Bend yesterday en route to New York, where he will sign Jack Dempsey for a ten round fight with Harry Gred. The trip, Fitzsimmons says, is being made in response to a call from Dempsey to come on East and sign up.

Greg has been trying to get in the ring with Dempsey for several months. He has been especially anxious to meet the champion since he disposed of Gunboat Smith in one round..."

Dallas Morning News, Dec 10, 1920

"John Bell, yesterday received a letter from Jack Kearns in which he stated that Dempsey was willing to box the winner of the Greb-Smith bout.... The Motor Square Club made an offer to Kearns last week of $50,000 to have Dempsey box the winner of the Christmas afternoon bout"

From Robert Edgren, April 10, 1921

"Tommy Gibbons and Harry Greb are both after Dempsey. Both have been doing remarkable fighting during the last two year...Greb is a hard hitter. He KO'd Gunboat Smith in two rounds. "

Baltimore Sun, March 21, 1922

"Jack Kearns Favors Greb. Manager Says Harry Deserves Match with Dempsey"

I could site tons of these. Greb was in the discussion. By 1922, many agreed that Greb had deserved a title shot.

 

Anyone ever eat at Dempsey's restaurant? I know its closed now, I read that
he was a great owner, also told Bob Dylan to fly straight or something to that effect
back in the day.Anyway gotta go with Tyson, a bigger, stronger, tougher version
of Dempsey. As for Mike having self doubt and being insecure, a lot of great performers in different mediums have confidence and mental issues. You can't really get in Mike's head, or Dempseys for that matter because you haven't lived their life. I know some will say Mike had it easy after Cus took him in, but vicious things that happen in your life haunt you forever even if youre living the high life. I have to disagree with all the talk about Mike "quitting" when he was behind or losing rounds. The Tillis, Tucker, Douglass, and yes Holyfield and Lewis fights all showed Mike had tremendous heart
and an iron chin. I like the clip from the movie "Tyson" where MIke states that during the walk to the ring and prefight prep hes thinking "the other guy is stronger, tougher, faster, etc. did I train hard enough, can he beat me etc. when I step into the ring Im a god" For all of Mike's antics and mental problems who are you gonna bet your paycheck on to beat him with Rooney in his corner? Maybe 5 to 7 fighters in history.
Its funny theres been many classical musicians at the highest level who dont like to perform live, a lot of pressure under the lights, but the mental attitude of utmost confidence is harder to achieve than the physical aspect, just like boxing. Anyway, honestly Ive only seen the Firpo fight, and clips rather than full fights. From what Ive read Dempsey could fight on the inside/outside had speed and power to KO much bigger guys. That being said I agree with a previous poster, Tyson walks through 99% of guys under 220.

 

It boils down to this.
Was Tyson bigger than Jack Dempsey ? Yes by not much.
Was Tyson "tougher" than Jack Dempsey was ? Hell NO.
Did Tyson ko everyone he met ? Nay.
Could Tyson ko Jack Dempsey ? Yessir...
Could Jack Dempsey hit hard enough to ko Mike Tyson ? Most certainly...
Has the fact that because Dempsey didn't fight Harry Wills, because the New York State
Boxing Commission wouldn't sanction a mixed HWT Title bout, have anything to do with
the thread " Jack Dempsey v Mike Tyson " on ESB ?. Not one iota....
So why are we injecting Harry Wills, Harry Greb, into this fantasy bout, when it is not part
of this simple thread ? Answer, because of all the fighters in history, Jack Dempsey has
the biggest target on his back, primarily on ESB by some posters...It is almost clinical in it's hatred for this decent human being who has been dead lo these many years...In all my many years as a boxing buff, I have never seen the likes of this obsession to bring
Jack Dempsey down as I do now on ESB...To shame !...

 

Really in truth Ali ducking rematches with Foreman and Young was WORSE than Dempsey not fighting Wills. Actually it's not comparable. The times dictated that the Dempsey Wills fight never happened. There is tons of evidence that Dempsey pushed to fight Wills...heck he signed to fight him twice. I have no doubt Dempsey wanted to fight Wills but the prejudice times of the 20's precluded it. Nothing stopped Ali from giving Foreman a rematch. George clamored for a rematch for three years and it never occurred. Ali kept saying he would fight foreman but he never did. Look back in history when an champion loses his title invariably there s a rematch.Marciano gave Walcott an immediate rematch, so did Ali with Liston, so did Patterson and Johannson, Spinks and Ali. The only glaring omission is Ali/Foreman during that30 year period of boxing history. So the difference is that Dempsey wanted to face Wills but could not....Ali did not want a Foreman rematch and guess what...it never happened. again if you want to use specific criteria to rate fighter apportion it uniformly.

 

It comes down to heart, and sheer will Jack wins down goes Tyson in a thriller

 

sharkey, tunney, schemling, baer, braddock, heeney rated dempsey as the best ever. in 1950 dempsey was the run away winner of fighter of the half century. arcel said dempsey would have beaten louis, but he didnt know who was the greater fighter. against tyson, dempsey would have mental toughness way above tyson and he would take it to the inside where dempsey was king. tyson was a bad dude - who did foul out. dempsey was a lion with no quit and a great chin and fighting spirit, whom was on of the best infighters ever. just opinion

 

Not alot of mystery in this matchup. Nostalgia aside Tyson wins in devastating fashion.

Take similar styles with Tyson being 216lbs in shape with a speed advantage. Not much Jack can do.

 

seamus a clown