Jack Dempsey vs Cleveland Williams

Just to add to the previous post, it seems just by looking on Google and having researched some info, Jack Dempsey beat another black boxer in February 1916 going by the name of the "Boston Bearcat" by first round KO in a fight in Ogden, Utah.

By seemingly all accounts, the bout with John Lester Johnson a few months later was a tough one and Jack suffered broken ribs in that.

It seems reasonable to assume then, that if the match made sense to Jack on his way up, he was willing to take on the right black opponent, if not as champion later on.

 

I just watched the tape of this fight on you tube and I scored it 5-3-2 for Terrell. I don't think there was anything controversial about Terrell getting the win. Williams ate jabs all night and Terrell couldn't seem to miss with his right cross. Even in power punches Terrell probably was ahead, not counting that he totally out jabbed Williams. Williams was the aggressor in the sense he stalked the moving Terrell, but Terrell consistently got off first and Williams missed most of his big punches. Terrell won the first half of the fight rather strongly as Williams stuck to stalking and looking for a big KO punch which didn't come. Williams wasn't throwing enough leather in these early rounds.

Terrell was perhaps rocked in the third and certainly in the fifth, but never seemed in serious trouble. Williams looked to be in deeper trouble in the sixth. Terrell had a cut eye which caused the ringside physician to check him between rounds several times while Williams left eye was badly swollen by the end because of the right crosses.

Scoring a fight is of course always subjective, and some might dock Terrell for his punch and then clinch tactics, but Terrell out boxed Williams and landed more leather.

The announcement of the decision was greeted by cheers from the crowd. The Chicago-born Terrell was fighting out of Philadelphia and the fight was in Philly. What is your evidence that "most" thought Williams won?

The Machen fight was in Williams' home town and I'm certain the crowd was for Williams, but what is the evidence that "most" thought the draw decision was unfair? I have never seen film of that fight.

Summing up, Williams looked good. He could box well for a big guy and he was obviously heavy handed, although Terrell took his best shots in this fights well. My thinking is Williams was a better boxer than generally acknowledged, but perhaps not as explosive a puncher as often credited. A good, solid contender who would have been an interesting challenger for Patterson in 1961.

 

Many of Dempsey's early opponents are so obscure, it is difficult, if not impossible, to be certain of their race.

Three of his opponents were certainly black.

Emmanuel Campbell--making his debut. boxrec lifetime record of 0-1
Boston Bearcat--making his debut. boxrec lifetime record of 0-4

Those two men could have been saloon tough guys.

The third, John Lester Johnson, was a solid fighter who might have been a fringe top ten guy if there had been ratings back them. The weights given at boxrec are 181 for Dempsey and 170 for Johnson. Reasonable. It was a ND bout, with apparently a slight majority of newspapers giving the fight to Johnson.

Johnson was the last black fighter Dempsey faced.

 

as for Joe Louis, there is dispute on what were official fights. boxrec has one view, The Boxing Register and the Cyber Boxing Zone another.

One or the other of these record keeping groups has the following black opponents and fights.

Willie Davies (2)
Roscoe Toles
John Henry Lewis
Johnny Davis
Jersey Joe Walcott (2)
Ezzard Charles
Andy Walker
Omelio Agramonte (2)
Jimmy Bivins

Comes out to 9 fighters and 12 fights. Davies and Davis were nobodies. Walker a journeyman. The others champions or rated contenders at some point during their careers.

Louis didn't draw the color line.

I have never head it mentioned, but of the fourteen fights Louis had after the war, from 1946 to 1951, seven were against black opponents. So half of his post-war opponents were black.

 

In the past i thought that big cat was an overrated mediocre guy but now i gives him more credit, he was an athletic strong powerful guy who had very good speed. A good physical specimen. Floyd patterson would have a hard test with him

 

Will look for newspaper accounts for both bouts where it's said the majority of the crowd had Williams as the winners.

 

"Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/paper/the-news-review/3596/

Will look for the Terrell one later.

 

Just on the Terrell fight, the crowd booed the report of the one judge giving the fight to Williams. They cheered loudly the scorecards which went to Terrell. Admittedly it was a Terrell crowd, but I see no way anyone can say or could have any evidence that "most" of the crowd thought that Williams deserved the nod.

Anyway, when I can see a fight I judge it myself, and to me Terrell won.

 

I remember when when Eddie Machen fought Ernie Terrell for the WBA World Heavyweight Title on March 5 1965, many in the crowd thought that Machen had won, he had swelled up Ernie's eyelid, and had him staggering in the last round. It makes me wonder what would have happened if Cleveland Williams had not been shot in late 1964, what would have happened?

 

Seems I was mistaken about the Terrell bout and spoke to soon. My apologies. Though their was controversy about whether or not Terrell deserved the verdict. I personally think Williams should've gotten the decision but don't have a problem with anyone who thinks differently. I forgot to source my last post about the Machen bout. I've since edited it and put in my link but will post it here once more https://www.newspapers.com/paper/the-news-review/3596/

 

To be fair the crowd have had a lot of guys winning that didn't.

 

JD knockout. Early

 

Agreed. It's not the be all end all, but the fact that Machen escaped with a majority draw, as the only judge who didn't have it a draw had Williams clearly up is telling imo.

 

While I think Williams looked good, there was something missing. While he held his guard high, he wasn't able to slip either jabs or right crosses. Also while he moved around well and threw combinations, I wonder about his reflexes. He rarely seemed able to get off first and if forced onto the defense didn't seem able to counter punch his way out.

While he was smooth, he nevertheless impressed me as somewhat stiff, for want of a better term.

I think boxing made a great deal of progress from the Dempsey era to the Williams era, but I like Dempsey in this match up. I think his quickness and aggression and bob and weave style should work against an athletic, but somewhat stiff opponent, with Dempsey harder to hit and with a better chin.

I can't say about Fulton having never seen him, but Williams would be better than the big guys Dempsey fought on film, Willard and Firpo, and would be an intriguing challenge.