Jack Dempsey vs George Foreman.

LOL near word for word you described “Young” Foreman in your second paragraph. Best known for a fight he lost? check.
A caveman who threw wild haymakers with no fundamentals to speak of? Double check.
About his resume, you could really pick that thing apart if you’re not inclined for bias.

 

Firpo's got wins against Erminio Spalla, Jess Willard, Gunboat Smith and Bill Brennan. Not a bum.

 

I just watched Peralta vs. Foreman and Pastrano. Jeez, those old Argentine fighters were tough! Gregorio didn't look like much. His body wasn't ripped. But the guy had skills and a lion's heart. He wasn't afraid of George at all. He had an answer whenever Foreman attacked. A funny thing: When Peralta fought Pastrano in 1963 it was his first bout in the States but Don Dunphy had gotten some advanced intel on him. He said in his broadcast that boxing insiders were calling him a threat to capture Sonny Liston's heavyweight title. He weighed 183 for the first Pastrano fight and 174 for the second fight seven months later. He thoroughly beat Willie by decision the first time, lost on cuts the second.

 

What is Spalla's best win?
Willard was 41/42 years old
That Gunboat Smith was a coloured novice whose record was
9-6-1.
Brennan was in the middle of his last 3 fights,all of which he lost.
You're right ,Firpo wasn't a bum,but neither was he anything special.

 

What does any of this have to do with the idea we should dismiss Usyks cruiserweight achievements in matchups with classical heavyweights who are closer in size to cruiserweights than most of the top heavyweights. You don't see this as insane logic?

Foremans wins over Frazier and Norton are held up as impressive wins and I don't think either is significantly bigger than guys Usyk beat at cruiserweight like Breidis and Gassiev. Can you explain the logic here?

I think its perfectly reasonable to use fights at cruiserweight as a barometer for fights with classical 1960s 1970s heavyweights. If you disagree may I ask why?

 

How can he have no fundamentals to speak of with one of the best jabs, body shots, and the ability to cut off the ring? He's known for the fights with Frazier and Lyle too, not just Ali.

You really can't talk about anyone being biased. You make it a point to bring up Foreman even when he has nothing to do with the thread. Did he smash your mom? Did you lose a bet? Talk to me. This is Choklab levels of obsession and the whole forum knows it.

 

Your first paragraph is kind of void when the film makes it so clear he has very little of any of that IMO - his best well known fight is what? Which was the point.

I do think he isn’t credited for his heart though, I think he had one of the biggest. George was a very wilful man to get where he was in the 70s with his skill set and that conviction sealed the deal all those years later.

The pendulum swings both ways when it comes to bias and it’s not Foreman I’m against in a mindless sort of way, though I’ll admit I will be one of the first to resort to name calling and at times nonsensical rants, most of which happening in Jeff Fenech threads( @Saintpat will tell you lol) or Foreman ones.

I used to actually have memorabilia of the guy before we lost our home when I was very young.
I had the Moorer newspaper clipping on my wall forever. I was so fond in fact I even had his blender not just the grill LOL.

Anyways, you’ll have to choose to believe I’m not going after just Foreman or just Liston or whoever, it used to be I was anti Ali but this one stuck I guess.

I just state what I find to be true and I think that’s healthy for a forum even if what I’m saying is outlandish to you and others it creates conversation.

I don’t think you need to resort to name calling because we have differing views, yours and mines own honour isn’t at stake here and I don’t think George Foreman will be upset - I do apologise though, I can be repulsive at times with my words and I beg your apology for past unsightly posts.

70s Foreman is a big strong, not very clever and crude guy like Firpo, If there positions were swapped I’ll bet they don’t turn out much different, that’s a can of worms I wouldn’t mind exploring.

 

Spalla was the best HW in Europe at that time. We don't know much about what European heavyweights were like at that time.
Gunboat Smith has got wins over Langford, prime Willard, Carl Morris, Frank Moran, Jim Flynn and some others.. not a bad resume for a 'novice'.
Bill Brennan had lost a decision to Floyd Johnson, before that he had only lost 1 out of 18 since the Dempsey rematch (a decision against Billy Miske). You have to consider the whole context.
Firpo put him in the hospital for 9 days.

 

This isn't about "differing views". Anyone with two functioning eyes can see he has a great jab, good body shots, and an ability to cut off the ring. To deny that is like saying Duran wasn't a good inside fighter or that Mayweather had bad defense. To deny that would be a flat out wrong opinion so I'll call it as such. Holyfield and several commentators praised his jab, Ali praised his ability to cut off the ring, etc. They're just paying lip service...?

You have dozens of videos, articles, and fighters praising Foreman for all the qualities I stated. Multiple users in this very forum. They're all wrong? We're just blinded by bias? If so, then you're basically saying Foreman had a bad jab, that he wasn't a good body puncher, that he couldn't cut off the ring, etc and again to suggest that makes it seem you're in bizarro land because we can all see it right there in video. Even if you don't think he's the best at those skills, he's certainly a league above Firpo who has NONE of the above skills and was clearly worse.

 

I’m not in bizzaro world, I don’t think I could be when two trainers here @greynotsoold and @Pat M have both had similarly unpopular opinions on Foreman disregarding a lot of the mythos - it at the least tells you the minority has real boxing guys with more much experience then you and I in it.

It isn’t that they agree with all my stuff either just that they don’t consider Foreman as much as others by a margin, at the least I can’t be entirely delusional lol. This is just a local example and a low hanging fruit though.

About Evander and Alis praise I can’t exactly ask Ali about Foreman’s jab and putting together quotes isn’t exactly the armour people treat it as, it’s been proven to be a little fickle.

Let me ask you this - Ali said Foreman couldn’t hit that hard so will you take that as a fact? Or are you only willing to take the most suitable quotes by Muhammad?

If you say Ali was trash talking (he said it after the fight) then you’ll have to let me do similar for similar reasons and I’ll just say that the praise was marketing or something - it will be stuck in the mud right there because neither of us can speak definitively for Muhammad Ali.

So instead of relying on quotes could we proceed by discussing the film we have based on our own insights and reasonings?

 

We know whom Spalla beat ,and just as importantly whom he didn't.
I've already explained to you this isnt THE GunBoat Smith this is a black novice fighter.

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Do you actually read the posts you reply to?

If you are in the middle of a 3 fight losing streak,after which you retire,you are definitely on the way out!

 

Can you show me a post from grey or Pat saying Foreman had a bad jab, couldn't cut the ring off, or that he wasn't a good body puncher?

To be frank, I think Pat is an idiot but if you can get posts from trainers backing up your stance I can let you off the hook.

Ali is on record saying Foreman was the strongest boxer he ever fought. It was trash talk to demoralize his opponents. He asked Foreman "is that all you got George?" Even though Foreman knew he had landed the hardest body shot he ever threw (according to him). Ali said Frazier was an ugly slow caveman with no defense or skill while engaging with Cus Damato. He also said Frazier brought out the best in him. When Ali was honest he gave his opponents credit.

I don't even need to just use Ali. Eddie Futch and Emmanuel Stewart (who have way more credibility than Greg and Pat) praised Foreman. So, uh, are you sure you want to go down this route...?

And if we're going to use film, by all means SHOW ME the fights where Firpo displays an equally good jab, body shots, ring cutting, etc as Foreman. You can even use quotes of fighters he fought or trainers who saw him. I want time stamps of specific fights where you think he looked as good as Foreman. Put your money where your mouth is.

Funny how he never became champion in an even worse era and Foreman did it twice in 2 eras despite supposedly being just as crude.

 

Im not going to dig through endless posts by Pat and Grey for very specific things I never claimed they said, I said that at the least you must admit they’re people who are “qualified” to disagree, they’re trainers they don’t think Foreman was an unstoppable movie monster so I’m not entirely delusional maybe a little lol.

I only said that the biggest difference between Luis and Foreman was film, not that it was the only difference correct me if I didn’t say that? but that’s what I meant.

Again we can go down the route of slinging quotes, which I don’t do it’s a waste of time. I won’t engage it. I also don’t think you should call Pat an idiot for disagreeing with you, but it’s probably a sign I shouldn’t be posting with you.

You can change your tone and be more respectful or shove it and I’m not wasting my energy on you - the way this will go from here is you can apologise and repost with a proper tone within the confines I want to discuss with you or we can move on with our day.