Jack Dempsey vs. Harry Greb (1919)

Do your research. The bout was called for long before 1925.

 

Bottom line is all it would take is one solid blow from Dempsey vs any middleweight and Greb was a middleweight. That one blow could come at any time from round one to round 10 or 15. The safe bet is that the hwt champion lands that one blow. What Louis did or did not do to Conn is meaningless except for the fact they fought twice and Louis knocked him out both times.

 

I'll tell you what I can't envision

- Jack Dempsey making 25 defenses of his crown
- Dempsey defeating Jersey Joe Walcott twice at 34 years old
- joe Louis getting knocked out in 1 round by a 37 year old Journeyman
- joe Louis losing to willie Meehan
- Jack dempsey fighting the best guys out there
- Jack dempsey fighting black heavyweights

I'll tell you what I know

- Dempsey never beat the best of his era. Louis did
- Dempsey never beat fighters as good as billy conn max Schmeling jersey Joe Walcott
- Dempsey never beat a big heavyweight puncher as good as max baer
- Dempsey avoided the two biggest challenges of his era. Louis did not


Here's the biggest one. Dempsey did not prove himself the best of his era, let alone all time. Louis clearly established himself the best of his era

 

I've said it before Mcgrain. Dempsey is the only champion in history who gets a free pass for something any other champion would be crucified for. So many excuses are made for Jack dempseys career.

Had Marciano not taken on his two best contenders and drew the color line...his legacy would be tarnished by fans today. Fans would not let him off the hook . He already gets enough criticism for winning every round and battering fighters like ****ell and Savold..can you imagine if he got knocked out by one of these men in 1 round? It happened to Dempsey.

 

Oh, your a beauty S ! Cause Dempsey did not fight Harry Wills, {though they SIGNED for the fight] you smear Dempsey as a {pardon the expression} a RACIST... I hope your proud of yourself.... You sir are a cur attacking a decent fellow like Dempsey who employed many black sparring partners, who were fond of Dempsey, and paying for both John Lester Johnson and Big George Godfrey's medical expenses years later before they died...Be PROUD of yourself you flamethrower...
I would bet any amount that the prime Dempsey would have obliterated an old slow Lee Savold, and a taker like Don ****ell long before the 9th round..
I, and not you sir, saw Rocky Marciano ringside, saw him train from 3 feet distance and admired Rocky no end, but the fact is Rocky missed half his punches, and depended on attrition, and that would be disastrous against a
faster and more accurate hitting Dempsey as almost all the veteran boxing writers voted by almost unanimous consent voted while Marciano was champion...I stand on better grounds than you sir...
I hope S, you today in 2015 feel more NOBLE calling a man long dead a vile name RACIST, who was so beloved by all races after he retired, and was called CHAMP til the day he died in 1983 at the age of 88. Hope your proud...

 

where does Dempsey get any free pass? If you know the history it was out of Dempseys hands regarding a bout with Wills. Johnson was still fresh on everyone's mind and because of this no one be it state boxing officials or promoters wanted the bout to take place. The deck was stacked against Wills. Dempseys stated this and Wills HIMSELF STATED IN HIS LATER YEARS THAT DEMPSEY WAS NOT AT FAULT IN ANY WAY THAT THE BOUT NEVER TOOK PLACE! Regarding the color line......unfortunately it was part of the American culture that during the time frame from Sullivan to Joe Louis blacks were just not considered as viable hwt contenders. Every American hwt champion, it was expected, would announce that he drew the color line. (It was interesting that Johnson was able to get Burns into the ring. Burns, a Canadian, was not burdened with the American viewpoint concerning race relations) From what I have read it was a way to always keep the title a white title for fear of the result from the black populous that a black man held a championship that allowed him to say he was every white mans superior. If you read the history Dempsey did not feel this way. He was what would be termed a progressive at that time. When he won the championship he was told to declare the color line by Kearns and Rickard......then quickly recinded it. Bottom line is the U.S.wasnot ready for a black champion. The generation that controlled boxing were from the post civil war era and looked at the black race in a very different and outlandish manner vs what is predominant today.

 

Like the man said, the list of excuses is very long.

 

So can we get this straight. If Dempsey or Marciano hit any Middleweight guy it is all over, but if a 230 - 240lb PUNCHER hits one of them, it just makes them fight back harder?

Ooooo Kaaay.

Seems to be a lot of weirdo's around.

 

Burt

I'm glad you saw Marciano ringside. Bravo I'd love to hear more stories. The late John Garfield not only saw Marciano ringside but he also saw him in the gym everyday. He once told me Marciano is one of the best ever but you don't notice how great he is until you see him live in action...not being there live you miss all the subtle things Marciano does that's so effective.. I wonder if you share the same opinion.

As for Dempsey I never called him a racist. All I said was I don't envision him taking in black fighters in a professional contest because
1. He never fought a black fighter again after john Lester Johnson smashed his rib cage
2. He publicly stated after Willard he would draw the color line
3. His number one contender for several years was black. Dempsey never fought him

 

What I love about champions like Marciano And Louis is neither of them have any excuses . They beat the best of their era..they took on there number one contenders..they did everything you could ask them to do ...whether or not you think there era stunk Louis and Marciano did everything they could be asked of.

did Dempsey? I would say the answer is a clear NO. Not only did he not fight his top contender he also avoided his number two contender. He took off three years. He Drew the color line.

Yet today a lot of Dempsey fans still give him a high-ranking and make excuses for the above choices he made ...

When you look at other champions and see they did not have those blemishes on their record then you have to except the fact Dempsey should be ranked lower than them...

As great a talent you may think he is, his talent was not proven against the best

 

S, The only viable black heavyweight that Jack Dempsey DID NOT fight whilst he became champion until 1923 was Harry Wills.
Jack Johnson after all was about 43 years old and through as a major fighter. Sam Langford was close to 40 years old. Sam McVea was through at that period in the early 1920s, Joe Jeannette was through as a fighter also in the early 1920s. So pray tell me S which black heavyweight of note other than Harry Wills did the Dempsey braintrust ran away from ? You today, cannot or will not understand the fear promoters of those days had of matching a black heavyweight and white champion, following the violent race riots of 1910 that ensued after the Jeffries / Jack Johnson fight in Reno...What promoter would risk the possibility of another riot and deaths reoccurring again. ?
The promoter would have been tarred and feathered for his greediness for money if another riot and deaths occurred.
Only a Michigan promoter Floyd Fitszimmons went against the tide and signed up both Dempsey and Wills for a bout, but it was
cancelled because Fitszimmons and his backers couldn't come up with the money...Was this Dempsey's fault.? Hell No...Even Harry Wills attested to this... So why is Dempsey so reviled today 90 years later by revisionists who love to pander and throw the vile adjective "RACIST" to a fine gentleman who was beloved by every race in America after he retired ?. In the 1940s I passed Dempsey's restaurant many times and watched crowds of people of all colours seeking to see a glimpse of Dempsey sitting at a table on the other side of a large glass window...The crowd loved him as no other heavyweight with the possible exception of my man Joe Louis...Were they all wrong just 15 or so years after he retired ?...No sir. Did Dempsey mesmerize millions of fans those days and after if he was a true bigot ?.. Hell No...When I used to go to MSG in the 1940s on Friday nights, Dempsey when introduced always got the most rousing ovation for a good reason. He was BELOVED by people more closer to the truth than his haters of today, for damn sure...:good

 

Drawing the color line against Wills seems like a horrible thing to do today, but were the people who opposed the match necessarily wicked?

Lets not forget that the Johnson Jeffries fight had resulted in race riots, and deaths.

Couldn't a person make a reasonable judgement call, that it wasn't worth risking that, for the sake of a boxing match?

 

What happened in the ensuing ten years for the powers that be to change their minds and accept Joe Louis as a potential champion?