jack dempsey vs harry greb, 1921

I don't see Greb suffering as a bout progressed ... his strength and the reason he xcelled against the bigger men was because they could not keep up with his pace ... then again, Dempsey is another bird ...

 

Valid point you make... But Jack Dempsy in 1921, was not prescient..He wasn't concerned with what future boxing fans,almost ninety years later, would think that his reluctance to meet the much smaller Harry Greb,would tarnish his legacy...We all mostly live for the moment, and so did Jack Dempsey...After all he was managed by Jack Kearns, not Nostrodamus...

 

true, but even with his reputation and record of the day, don't you think the general perception of the time was that greb was a worthy opponent? especially if these sparring sessions were in fact public?

i'm wondering how schmeling/walker looked the time? from what i've heard on hear walker was a #3 ranked heavyweight. what was grebs relative ranking during dempsey's reign? could the windmill claim to be a legitimate challenger?

 

Honestly, when reading the old RING magazines of the times [ I have a few },Harry Greb was never in the top ten heavyweights column the Ring woukd list every month...I never recall the columnists of the Ring Mag,mention Harry Greb as a heavyweight contender..Never..Nat Fleischer to my knowledge mentioned a possible Demposey / Greb match...I think that they regarded the 3 sparring sessions, where Greb avoided Dempseys rushes, as hectic training sessions, and nothing more...Todays Greb's stock is RIGHTFULY soaring, while Dempsey's prime greatness is woefully forgotten...
Another thing, it is true Dempsey did not fight Harry Wills,not because Dempsey was fearful of the big, slow moving wills...He listened to Tex Rickard , Dempsey's matchmaker who feared a possible repeat of the unfortunate race riots following the Jeffries vs Johnson fight in 1910... After all Jack Dempsey employed as regular sparring partners, Big Bill Tate, and George Godfrey, who he would handle with ease...Jack Sharkey and Paolino Uzcudun, both defeated Harry Wills, and assuredly so would have the Manassa Mauler...Dempsey was considered the roughest, toughest heavyweight of all times, and he feared no fighter in the ring, I believe...

 

Addendum, I meant Nat Fleischer never mentioned a possible Dempsey vs Greb fight.

 

informative take:good it was a legitimate question about greb which you provided a clear answer for. if he was never rated as a heavyweight, despite his resume and as you stated current status, then it is hard to fault dempsey for not fighting him. it's hard not to take current perspective and place it back in the 20s but facts are facts: if greb was never considered as a true challenger to dempsey than he had no reason to fight him

you are slowly convincing me that dempsey's reputation of fear towards wills is mistaken and there were mitigating factorrs. you're likely right in that dempsey would have been too much for him but wouldn't it have been nice to find out? did not know about tate and godfrey: i think pretty highly of godfrey and if he manhandled him, that says quite a bit. still for the sake of his record, these things are best proven in the ring and as we've discussed in the past, most of the footage we have of dempsey is far past his best and is not as complementary as other champions

 

Greb could control Dempsey for three rounds in sparring, and even though Dempsey treated sparring sessions much like actual fights, I don't think this necessarily translates into what would happen over 15 rounds with Dempsey's championship at stake. I'd consider Greb a live underdog, I think Dempsey would start to take things over mid-rounds after his body work begins to take a toll on Grebs legs. A game changer could be if Greb could open a nasty cut like he did against Tunney. Greb was good at that, and it isn't out of the realm of possibility even though Dempsey had good cut resistance.

 

True, Dempsey's legacy would have been better if he fought Wills...But we must remember all of us are products of our times, as was Dempsey...But there were no heavyweight , black or white who Jack Dempsey feared when he was in his prime 1917-1922. NONE... When Dempsey was at his killer peak, Sam Langford was old, was stopped by underated gianf Fred Fulton, who Dempsey obliterated in one minute. Langford was not in contention by then so the only black threat at that time was Harry Wills,who was then beaten by Jack Sharkey and theChuvalo of his time bullish Paolino Uzcudun of Spain...
Sidenote,why isn't Sugar Ray Robinson's legacy affected by his reluctance to fight Charley Burley, Holman williams, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid etc...
Why is the great Dempsey,given the shaft, for not fighting a Harry Wills, but the great Robinson's reputation today remains unscathed. ? Why ?

 

good point but robinson's reputation is not completely unscathed, at least on the classic. he has received some grief for avoiding fighters, notably burley and williams. robinson's advantage is that he fought in the golden era of boxing and that for every 1 hall of famer he didn't fight, there were another 3 he could (and did). dempsey had less to choose from, there weren't any real clear challengers to his title before tunney. any fighter dempsey didn't fight, for any reason, is more likely to be scrutinized and picked apart as a result. you're right, probably not fair but robinson had a chance to fight tremendous competition, even if he ducked a few, and dempsey simply didn't

 

In green, this is how I lean on those quotes too, right now.

 

dempsey would have won this battle of legends

 

Burt, Dempsey apologists always seem to write off Wills as slow to classify him with Willard, Fulton, Morris and Firpo, basically Dempsey KO victims and if you are a historian then you know that's nonsense ... Wills was an exceptional fighter who had size, strength, huge power and very good speed. He fought and defeated far better competion than Dempsey did. I agree Dempsey feared no one but I draw the line at ficticiously watering down Wills to make it seem he was in Jack's wheelhouse ... Rickard and Kearns did not make the bout because they felt Jack could very well lose just as well as win, that Wills was way too high risk. Let's at least be honest about it ..

 

You should see it in a different way. It just highlights how high Greb is regarded that people thought he could challenge and beat Dempsey but nobody thought greats like Robinson, Monzon, Hagler would have a chance against Louis/Marciano, Ali/Foreman, Holmes/Tyson.

 

I think Schmeling-Walker was seen as the number one hw fighting the number two hw. Sharkey was champ but most people thought he lost the Schmeling rematch just like most/many people thought Walker beat him too.

 

I think Harry Greb genuinely believe he could beat Dempsey over 8 or 10 rounds, and well he might have.
I think Greb had serious apprenhensions about his chances winning over 15 rounds though.