Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

I think the 190 is a terrible catch weight.

the Catch weight should be 175. Dempsey would have to train down. Toney could come in great shape close to his best.

Toneys best wins at the weight include Nunn, McCallum and Williams but he has quite a few losses there including Jones, Griffin and Thadzi.

Dempseyhas the better wins over light heavys with his dominance of Gibbons, Carpentier, Levinski as well as wins over others who were only slightly over the light heavy weight limit including Miske and Gunboat Smith.

Of course the equalise is that Dempsey would have to drop the weight and that is an unknown. Without the catchweight, Ironically, Toney might be the heavier fighter but he is not in the same class as Dempsey and his record proves it. He might survive but that is far from guaranteed. Dempsey was simply too good. Even pound for pound i think that Dempsey proved himself ahead of toney.

 

Just a question for the toney fans. If it was an open fight, how much does Toney weigh for the fight? and which version of toney that did actually fight gives him the best shot at beating Dempsey. Is i the Holy tyson or a younger fitter but lighter version or some other version?

 

and yet, we are still forced to hear comparisons to the klitschkos on here...

 

I think Toney would win many rounds and frustrate Dempsey pretty well, I won´t say he would win the fight though...because I think Dempsey would eventually find a way to win...

 

First no way toney ever lasts 5 rounds with prime Dempsey. Dempsey takes his head off. Willard was never bought of as a great fighter. He was in incredible condition, fit enough to fight the world as per Fleischer, and his trainers had him fight an excellent game plan to win the fight vs Johnson. Willard had a great jab and a right hand that could ko anyone. We could argue technique all night long. The Klits are walking statues.

 

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Again, this is FOUR YEARS before he faced Dempsey.

The Willard that faced Dempsey hadn't fought in 3 years, was 37 years old and stupidly over confident. Unlike, say an old Larry Holmes, he had no great skillset to fall back on. His physicality was all he had.

Do you see the disconnect in your logic or do we need a to draw a diagram?

 

So how many world class heavyweights did Toney beat, who were 37 years old, stupidly overconfident, or lacking a great skillset?

 

once he got em hurt, yeah. dempsey wouldn't have gotten toney flush or often enough to really hurt him.

if he didn't knock out gibbons, don't see him knocking out toney

 

This is a match at 190, which during Toney's career was the cruiserweight division. An old McCallum and a prime Jirov impress me more. Add to it a 40 year old Holyfield, a decision over a prime Ruiz and his efforts against Peter in the first fight and Rahman... and frankly I am more impressed with Toney against fighters 190 and over.

 

And Dempsey never stopped a fighter as defensively skilled as Toney.


If Denis lebedev couldn't stop Toney when he was beyond shot, drained and about 52 I don't see anyone doing it below that limit. Peter and rahman are harder punchers than Dempsey and neither could stop Toney.

Dempsey should win but not by stoppage, never in a million years.

 

the more i think about this the more i think jack would win a close fight on points like you do. jack was quick as hell an did have crazy upperbody movement at time, agility, fast feet. I think the dempsey of the willard fight would get countered bad though, he was a bit wreckless an you cant do that to james. its been so long since ive watched other jack fights so ill refrain from going further. Dempsey was all around faster than jirov an toney had to dig very deep in that fight. i think this would be an extremely violent fight

 

There's no way in hell I can imagine this guy beating Dempsey :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOqWPoR76mI[/ame]


For all his alleged "defensive genius" he doesn't half take a lot of punches, esp. to the body, and several to the head that come over the top that he's ridiculously slow to react to.
And Jirov is playing pitty-pat with those punches. In fact, both fighters are throwing weak arm punches almost the whole fight.

Toney has no legs, stands on the ropes and takes punches on his arms and on his flabby sides. Is this really the sort of "skill" that you'd want to fight Dempsey with ?

By all means, Dempsey might be over-rated due to generations of rose-tinted nostalgia and the hyperbole that accompanies such a cultural icon of America .... but what the **** is the excuse for this gross over-rating of James Toney ?

A 1987 cruiserweight Holyfield would have punched beaten Toney from pillar to post, and probably stopped him. Qawi would have probably punch the **** out of Toney too. Dempsey would have crushed him.