Jack Dempsey vs James Toney @ 190 Catchweight

Unforgiven you're nitpicking, It would be close. nobody is stopping Toney. outworked, sure. Stopped. No

 

Toney's results, performances and achievements above middleweight are very patchy. His reputation seems to be aided largely by his big mouth and a few 'old school' moves and skills that don't seem so effective outside of highlight reels. He was an excellent fighter but he's getting a bit over-rated.

I think Dempsey would stop Toney, because I seriously doubt Toney can take punches to the body for 12 or 15 rounds from Dempsey, never mind the head. His "defensive skills" involve taking shots to the shoulders, arms and sides, and standing on the ropes trying to slow the pace and then pot-shot and counter. It's suicide against Dempsey, imo.


I'd expect several men to stop Toney. Men with speed, power and workrate, at cruiser or heavyweight.
Toney would have lasted 3 rounds with Mike Tyson, at most, imo. It could well be over in 1 round.

 

Toney soaked up shots from fighters that outweigh Jack by 60 pounds. Massive punchers that hit harder than Dempsey. Enough said. You really think Jack has the concussive heavy handed power of rahman or sam peter? You're the one overrating dempsey here. He could win with speed an activity an that's even a maybe, but I would favor him. Knock toney out? Right okay... Dempsey never fought anyone as skilled as toney.

 

Firstly, Toney wasn't 190 pounds when he fought Rahman and Peter. He was pumped full of steroids, and weighed almost as much as they did.

Secondly, Rahman and Peter were heavy-handed. But it's sharp accurate power and combination punching that often results in knock-outs. I think you can probably count the amount of genuine ranked contender fighters who Sam and Hasim stopped between them on the fingers of one hand.

I've explained why I think Dempsey could stop Toney. My critique of Toney's style is valid. I think a cruiser Holyfield would stop Toney too. Toney's style wouldn't work well against those fighters.

 

I dunno, Toney's style doesn't impress me regarding his chances to survive Dempsey.
Gibbons had legs, and ran with them, and grabbed (Dempsey was coming off a 2-year layoff and probably wasn't prime sharp anyway). Toney, even in his prime at lighter weights, was always a bit static.
I can only judge his style from what I see. I see him standing on the ropes, taking shots in the body and arms, and rolling ones to the head. Being cute on the ropes. Certain guys would murder him for doing that, Dempsey I think is one of them.
I don't see Toney on his bicycle, jabbing and grabbing and running.

In a modern rule set, fights are stopped more readily, so that balances out against what you said about Dempsey needing numerous KDs and fouls.


Dempsey KO'd a few guys who hadn't been stopped before.
Bill Brennan, Billy Miske, Battling Levinsky had never been stopped until Dempsey did it.

If a 190 pound Toney had faced the prime Holyfields, even light-heavy Moorer, or even David Haye, never mind a prime Tyson, and stood up to those sorts of assaults and speed and punches, I'd probably revere his durability far more.
I just don't consider Jirov, or massive dreadnought plodders like Sam Peter to be great indicators of his ability to survive a sustained Dempsey assault and mauling.

 

Having said all that, some of the postors here would probably expect Toney to last the distance with prime Tyson and a prime Joe Louis (or even beat Louis !), so no point in arguing. :good

 

Your characterization of Toney's style is bunk. In his prime, Toney was very hard to hit flush. He's not just taking shots but rolling with them. Maybe Jack Demspey can teach James Toney something about defense? Like how to take five or six telegraphed right hands in a row from Firpo?

How is Toney's style "suicide" against Dempsey and why? You really think that Dempsey hit a dozen times harder than anyone Toney ever fought? Nope. Dempsey was just a man. He was about the size of Jirov. So what exactly is Dempsey going to do? You think Toney, who fought middles, SMWs, and LHWs is going to be impressed by Dempsey's speed? I'm not buying it. Dempsey is not Roy Jones, not by a long shot.

 

Watch the footage. Toney is taking shots. Jirov is hitting him in the body. And in the head. There's only so much you can take out of a punch by rolling, esp. a body shot. Toney was hurt by some of those punches to the belly.
Dempsey had raw power and speed. He was a brute. Gene Tunney beat him by avoiding the punches completely and beating him to the punch, a past-prime Dempsey. Tunney's not sitting on the ropes blocking the punches with his shoulder, waiting to get mauled.

Of course Dempsey was just a man. But he hit harder than Jirov.
Dempsey's speed and power would be too much for Toney, yes.
I'm not over-rating Dempsey. I think other guys would have beat Toney up at cruiserweight too. A 1987 Holyfield would have smashed him up too.

You talk about Toney against middles, SMWs and LHWs, well, a lot of those guys also gave him serious problems because of his lazy style. He needed gifts to get past some of those guys. And how many of them hit even as hard as Tommy Hearns, never mind Dempsey.

There's a reason Toney wasn't a dominant fighter at cruiser or at heavy. It's because he's no where near as good as some of you rate him.

How many ferocious pressure fighters did Toney ever beat at any weight ?

 

Jess Willard was a bit dreadful when Jack Dempsey faced him, but I think Jess gets a raw deal generally.
Knocking out Jack Johnson in the 26th round was epic. Johnson was past his best, but if Jeffries or Langford had done the same to Jack Johnson we'd be hearing about how great that is.
The film shows that he KO'd Johnson with a sharp straight right hand to the temple, so it's not like Johnson just gassed out and fell to some crappy cowboy swing.

 

I couldn't agree more with the quote above. Just because Toney lands a nice counter right hand doesn't mean the three punches the other guy landed before that have been erased from history.

I scored the first Toney-Peter Match in Peter's favor, by a small margin. The Showtime commentators that night made me sick to my ****ing stomach.

*Peter lands a huge right hand, staggering Toney*: "Look at how well he absorbed that shot, rolling with it now!
*Toney lands a flicking jab after being thrashed on the ropes*: "PERFECT LEFT HAND FROM TONEY THAT BACKS OFF PETER!!!!!"

I don't see James "split decision" Toney beating Dempsey. Even his best win, Jirov, was very close were it not for a great finish. Then he has many off nights like against Tiberi and Dick friggin Thadzki or something.

I don't hold Dempsey in as high regard as most here, but I don't see him losing to Toney.

 

Jirov was a joke really. Dempsey had all time great skills, faster hands than Louis and one punch ko power. As per Arcel....."what Dempsey had you can't teach"

 

The Jirov fight was close (in fact it could have gone to Jirov despite the knock down), but you are overlooking the styles aspect of it. Jirov was throwing crazy volume nonstop, plus from a southpaw stance. Some of those punches were just slaps but some had power behind them. Jirov's relentless pressure and smothering caused Toney problems.

But when did Dempsey ever fight like this? When did he throw that kind of volume? Dempsey was much more of a typical opponent in that sense, and would present Toney with opportunities to land the counter right hands that he likes to throw. It's very different when the opponent is in your chest round after round, because you can't get off that kind of punch.

As for Holyfield, Toney dismantled him on the inside when they fought. I don't see that changing with a 1987 version. Cruiserweight Holyfield would have to keep it on the outside, because Toney would clown and dismantle him on the inside.

 

No he was not a joke. You're disrespecting the sport of boxing, you idiot. That is what you're doing on here. Constantly, blindly picking any old bum over any "modern" fighter. Dempsey's skills, especially defensively, were extremely limited. And get this through your head: no gives a **** what Ray Arcel or Nat Fleischer had to say when it contradicts the video evidence, as well as basic common sense.

 

I think Dempsey would be on top of Toney, mauling him on the inside, ripping right hands to the body, tearing him up.

Holyfield of 1987 would push Toney back and break him down, throwing punches from all ranges. I doubt Toney would do much better than Ocasio or DeLeon did.