Jack Dempsey vs Joe Frazier

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PetethePrince, Jan 15, 2010.


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  1. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Frazier was basically pushed back at times against Quarry, Stander, Bonavena, and Foreman.

    I won't even go into the amount of times he has been hurt or shaken up. Marciano went forward in the trenches blind against Walcott for 3 rounds.

    It seems what you were describing was strength. I don't see Frazier being physical stronger. In fact, Seamus said in a celebrity Olympic type event he struggled military pressing 90 or so pounds. Marciano was an avid strength/weight-lifting machine before his boxing days. He quit because someone told him that it could mess him up for boxing (He often took advice on a whim).

    Walcott and Frazier throw hooks completely differently. Walcott is tricky, cute, and slick. Frazier is none of these things. Walcott's feinting and moves caught Marciano up. The famous hook was a time in the 1st round when Rocco got dropped. However, it was Walcott's duping and feinting, not a particular punch that set him up or had him vulnerable to.

    I think it's warranted to say that even Joe Frazier being 15-20 pounds more isn't really stronger physically. He was a bit puffier than Rocky.

    So you're explanation of Frazier "walking down" Marciano as your reasoning doesn't seem viable. Against Dempsey, it would probably be more dangerous, but I think due to their builds and respective attributes that Frazier could force Dempsey backwards more a little easier. At least that's my take.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #61
  2. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, the dudes' you just mentioned up top were either punchers or monsters--FOREMAN! Them guys you listed would hurt anyone upon landing the bomb.... I care LESS who you are....... "Quarry, Stander, Bonavena & Foreman" could whack........

    I saw the '72 ABC athletic sports competition event with Frazier off ESPN classics a few yrs ago............ Frazier was out of his element in that event....... Frazier can't swim fast or run fast for **** and is not very strong up top as a weight-lifter........ Frazier's body strength is in his legs...... As a fighter, he'd have beaten the **** out of his athletic opponents on ABC in '72......... That whole event just stunk and was embarrassing for Frazier........

    It was like watching Shaq hit baseballs' alongside Bo Jackson and box DLH..... Shaq looked like a dick in there........

    MR.BILL:deal:yikes
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #62
  3. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    First, chin/durability is one thing. But you're stressing physical strength. These guys at times pushed Frazier back. That sort of stuff just didn't really happen to Marciano. Frazier can't be observed as stronger, regardless of how much bigger you think his legs are. :lol:

    Do you have that on tape? I'm dieing to see some of this footage you and others have referred to. I saw Joe briefly swimming because it was a clip on the Daily Show a few years ago. It was hilarious how bad he was at swimming. I don't know why he would jump into an event like that, it seemed he didn't know how to swim.

    Anyway, if you have that on tape I'd really appreciate if you uploaded it on youtube or sent to me or something.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #63
  4. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Marciano rarely ever fought a bullish dude who was bigger and stronger than him........... Louis had success early on for 4 or 5 rds before age caught up to him....... Walcott and Charles were boxers; not pressure type brawlers, so their style is not condusive to applying pressure....... BUT!!! "LaStarza and Cockell" had success to a degree in forcing Marciano back and having to regroup........ Marciano struggled there........ So it was possible to push Marciano back......... I think Frazier of 1971 could push Marciano of '52 back........


    NO! I do not have that event from '72 on tape....... ESPN classics plays it from time to time......... Frazier was NOT a gifted athlete; merely a gifted / determined fighter...........

    MR.BILL:thumbsup
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #64
  5. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Oh, I found something from it.

    Poor Joe, he was very brave for doing it. I think he knew swimming wasn't his thing in the opening he seemed like he was preparing himself for possibly being a little embarrassed.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM&feature=related[/ame]
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #65
  6. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    If LaStarza and Cockell had success in backing Rocky up then the guys I mentioned were punishing Joe physically. What you're saying isn't even true, I've seen both fights.

    Thanks anyway, I found something check my post above.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #66
  7. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's it, dude........ Frazier was foolish... I hope he was at least paid..... BUT! That might have been a fund raiser, etc...... I'm not sure.....

    I just popped in my '85 tape of "Spinks-Holmes 1" from HBO......... I am bummed about erasing the rematch from '86 by accident...... I had fight # 2 at the end of a tape and forgot it was there... I taped a Three Stooges marathon years back and recorded right over it...... ARGH! Fight # 1 was historical but also boring....... # 2 was better but tainted by the poor decision..... Holmes really beat Spinks in '86..........

    All in all, "Ali vs. Leon Spinks" and "Holmes vs. M. Spinks" were NOT all that great of fights...... My fav of the 4 fights is the "Holmes-Spinks 2" fight from '86....... Figures I would have to screw up and erase that.... Pisses me off that ESPN classics NEVER replays that fight, either.......

    MR.BILL:bbb
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #67
  8. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I was just gandering at "Marciano-Cockell." I have it from the show "The Mian Event" with Marciano as the host........ Marciano praised Cockell very much for being very tough and game....... Marciano said the guy who claimed Cockell couldn't fight was a liar........ Marciano was forced to go 9 hard rds before getting the TKO.........

    Some folks on ESB have actually stated that LaStarza might've been screwed against Marciano in the first fight of '53-circa.....

    At any rate, Marciano had his hands / gloves full with them guys while it (Fights) lasted............

    MR.BILL:thumbsup
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #68
  9. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Ah that sucks. Spinks vs Holmes II was still a close fight in my book. If I recall I thought Holmes one, but it wasn't as clear as the 1st fight in terms of "Who was the winner."

    That's the Superstars Swimming event - at least according to the youtube uploader. Joe definitely didn't do much swimming. Wouldn't surprise me if he hadn't even swam before. It reminds me almost like Pac swimming in the last 24/7 against Cotto.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #69
  10. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Hard rounds? It was Cockell in retreat, taking shots, and trying to jab and mess up that nose that recently Rocco had surgery on. Not a good Rocky performance. Cockell might have won 1 round. Cockell was beating to a pulp.

    First fight was in 1950... and it was a close fight. A SD having LaStarza been dropped and Rocky getting a points deduction for low blows. A close fight, but most say the decision was fair. The rematch in 53 was close for the first half of the fight, but Rocco takes over. Rocky batters LaStarza arm so bad he broke blood vessels in his arm. Roland needed surgery after the fight and was never the same.

    Ah...okay.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #70
  11. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I do feel Marciano was wise to retire in '56.................. With "Liston and Cleve Williams" lurking in the ratings and "Patterson & Ingo" in the mix as well, Marciano made a smart move for sure........ At age 33, it was time to step down.......

    MR.BILL
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #71
  12. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    I still think at that time he could've beaten either Patterson or Ingo. But I do agree, the timing was fine. And it was smart to know when to quit. A truly underrated quality for a sportsman/champion.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #72
  13. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    At least Marciano was wise / tight with his money and he got a job with "The Main Event" doing the TV show....... He was successful......... Better than the average ******* in boxing....... How many retired boxers end up broke???? Marciano lived good, even though his Jew manager Al Weil was a shyster / crook........ **** me raw, Weil took 50% of all Marciano earned in boxing.........

    MR.BILL:yikes
     
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    MRBILL, Jan 16, 2010
    #73
  14. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Yeah, Al Weil was a crook but he also gave Rocky an easier chance to make something out of himself in his career. He had connections. Definitely a tricky crook the way he was manipulating Rocky and his money.
     
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    PetethePrince, Jan 16, 2010
    #74
  15. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Cockell showed a lot of heart but Bill did you see the fight...it was a complete on-sided shellacking...Ok a lot of people say Marciano should have stopped him in 1. Marciano did not look good but the reason was everyone expected a 1st rd KO...Cockell was battered but got up....no one can say he did not have heart. I can go threw a list of fighters who did better than they should have and I can go through the list of heavys from Johnson to Vlad...Sanders was supposed to last 2 rds but in Vlads favor...Vahn Bean ring a bell...and Johnson, Vitali's last opponent, Tex Cobb? Chuck Wepner?
     
    Bummy Davis, Jan 16, 2010
    Bummy Davis, Jan 16, 2010
    #75
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