Jack Dempsey Vs Joe Louis

I don't know if the Flynn fight was fixed or not, but you may be the only person in the world who acccepts Maxine as a reliable witness. Even Roger Kahn doubted her and Dempsey always denied it.

And do you accept everything else Maxine testified to at that trial?

 

Just because Cates said it doesn't mean it was false. And the way the first encounter with Flynn unfolded flies completely in the face of the career patterns of both Flynn and Dempsey. Does anybody on this board truly believe that a 38 year old boxer with no other first round wins on his record legitimately took out the fastest starting HW champion in history? And just how many times have opponents exchanged one round kayoes in genuine competitive situations, as opposed to rigged outcomes? (Let alone in the span of one year's time.)

 

There are two possible explanations :

1. Dempsey was sick, injured, of for some other reason far below even the Dempsey who went 10 hard rounds with Andre Anderson & J.L.Johnson the previous year in N.Y. as a malnourished novice, let alone the real Dempsey we know of (c.1919).

OR

2. The outcome was fixed.


I've seen Fireman Jim Flynn.
And I've read many accounts of how even the youngest rawest skinniest version of Dempsey could take a beating and keep coming.

It is hard to imagine Flynn beating anyone tough by first round KO.
I know fighters can be 'caught cold' but this is a peculiar result to say the least.

 

Indeed. Dempsey was frequently in desperate need of money at this stage of his career, and had to scrounge up an income working a variety of odd and menial jobs. A couple of days before what he evidently termed in court as "the Flynn affair," Jack reportedly got his right hand smashed by a ball while working at a bowling alley setting up pins. As a result, he couldn't make a fist, and could barely get his hand into a glove. While such an injury would not explain his sudden inability to take a punch, it might have made it far more tempting for Dempsey's camp to accept a payoff in order to lay down. (Of course he could easily take out Flynn with his left alone, but $500.00 was probably far better money than he stood to make in a competitive win.)

The bowling pin injury makes sense. As financially strapped as Jack was at the time, he was out of the ring for five weeks after the Flynn fiasco. When he did return to action, it was in Oakland CA, a location well removed from the site of the fix. He failed to score a kayo in his next four matches (all four rounders), losing to Meehan for his first legitimate career defeat, and drawing twice with somebody using the name Al Norton, before finally returning to the win column with his first rematch against Willie. (Then he returned to a truer form by dispatching Norton in one.) It may well be that his inability to work his right in training reduced his effectiveness in the ring until it healed fully.

That injury may also be the genesis of his left hook's greater effectiveness. Mickey Walker also developed a tremendous hook after his right got busted, and Holmes cultivated his jab while recovering from a broken right hand in the second round against rugged 6'5" 240 pound Tiger Williams. (Anybody who thinks Lennox and the Klitschko's might have been too big for Larry could do well to consider how Holmes was able to beat Roy Williams with one good hand.)

It does bear reminding that Jack's brother Bernie was his chief second at the time of the Flynn fix, and that nothing resembling this outcome transpired against Dempsey after he came under the patronage of the astute Kearns and Rickard.

 

Dempsey by KO. Same type of speed, bone crunching power and faster / better footwork.

 

I do think it is possible to make a "rationally logical" case that it could have been a legitimate knockout:
1. Strange things happen--Joe Shugrue scored only 16 knockouts in 88 fights, but knocked out Hall-of-Famers Benny Leonard and Owen Moran.
2. Was Flynn so bad?--Flynn was 37 and on a losing skid, but he was still fighting the best in the world while Dempsey had fought only one fringe contender, John Lester Johnson. Over the years Flynn had been in with Johnson, Burns, Langford, Smith, Dillon, and other top men. He had knockouts over George Gardner, Bill Squires, Al Kaufman, and Charley Miller, a champion and good contenders. He certainly represented a step up in competition for Dempsey and had been at least a fairly dangerous puncher.
3. And Dempsey--Two years earlier Dempsey had been knocked down nine times by Johnny Sudenberg, a middleweight with a very poor record over all. Flynn was bigger, and, off the record, a much better puncher than Sudenberg. Dempsey had come up through remote mining and cow towns, but romanticism aside, his opponents there were probably not of the calibre he would have met in New York or Philadelphia.
4. Dempsey's story--The strongest arguement. Dempsey said in his autobiography that Flynn caught him with a sneak punch and stood behind him to keep knocking him down until Bernie panicked and threw in the towel. This is certainly a plausible story and I doubt Dempsey made it up out of whole cloth. The AP did carry the story that Dempsey was down and out for twenty seconds but I doubt an AP correspondent was present at ringside in Murray, Utah, for a fight between a past it contender and an obscure prospect. Who knows where this version came from?
5. There was a stink and Dempsey was banned, but he did return to fight a series of exhibitions in Utah in 1931 and later refereed there, including the Charles-Layne fight. People must have had short memories.
6. I might ask, if it were fixed, why did Dempsey make it look so obvious by going down right away? Do you see him as that cynical, willing to shaft the betters who supported him so openly and then lie about it over the years, even fabricating a phony story in his autobiography while trashing his dead wife.
I just don't see Dempsey as being that sort of low-life.
7. On the Sharkey fight. I owned a 8mm version of this fight back in the sixties and so had seen it. When I went to the theatre for Ali-Frazier I, they warmed the crowd up with a film of spectacular knockouts from the past, strung together, with no names given. When this KO flashed up, I doubt if most could have known it was Dempsey, but no
other punch shown, and they showed Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Zale, Williams, and tons of others, produced a bigger reaction than the awed roar that arose when that left swung up to turn Sharkey's face into a gargoyle, clearly visible in slow-motion and blown up to gargantuan size on the big screen. To call that punch glancing is nuts.

 

Greater big man beats greater little man. Joe Louis catches Dempsey coming in early. Louis KO 5

 

There is about 10lbs seperating them at their peaks.

Hardly a game deciding difference.

 

i hope you are talking on his hand speed, because his feet work was = ****, he had a ****ing slow legs. Dempsey had better chin, much faster legs, more aggressive and i can argue he was harder puncher.

 

I like Dempsey in this one, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Louis pulled it out. It'd be a fantastic fight, though.

 

William Harrison Dempsey would pimp slap you for sporting a picture with him and posting up that BS.

peak vs. peak they were barely 10lbs apart.

I am positive that Dempsey could take Louis best shot better then Louis could take a left hook from hell; toe to toe, in an all out brawl, i don't see Louis last.
And also i rate Dempsey as a much better inside fighter, although Joe was great himself.

Just like in Willard fight, i see Dempsey staying out of the range, stalking a much slower Louis, and waiting to slip one of his punches just to get inside Joe and batter him up with devastating body punches.

I think you got it the other way around; anyway stamina won't be a deciding factor, because this fight won't go the full distance.

Dempsey by KO inside of 6; and Nat Fleischer agrees.

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

It's a MUCH better match-up than the common: Prime Louis vs Marciano


Louis was bothered by good pressure fighters. Dempsey is one of the greatest pressure fighters of all time. It would really be a tough one to call. I dont think Dempsey had ever been out cold, Louis has.

Louis in my opinio would have to pull one of his common late fight knockout miracles like he did to walcott, because if it went to decision, I see Dempsey taking it.

 

Louis had pretty decent footwork, that is commonly ovrlooked because he didnt move around the ring really fast. He just used timing instead of speed. Next time you watch him box, watch how he uses his feet to get in the best position for a counter. Watch how he uses "hops".


Fast forward to 9:30
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhZ3IA27T-I[/ame]

And tell me that wasnt excellent footwork and ring generalship to get Braddock off of him so he could continue his onslaught. Look how he hops back away from Braddocks clinch. You have to be an incredible athlete to pull that off and still throw power punches.


When comparing Louis to Ali, yes his ring generalship was not good. But when comparing to the average ATG, its really not bad at all. Footwork is more complex of an attribute than just being able to get around the ring quickly.

 

That depends on whether you thnk Flynn I was a fix or not. I do. I personally think that if the fight lasts longer than 5 Louis would probably take it. Sometimes he was slow to start, but I'm not sure if he would versus Dempsey.

The Louis of the Baer fight versus the Willard or Levinski Manassa Jack would be something pretty epic to behold, i think.


Edit: I really don't understand why people think Louis has shitty footwork. Is being completely balanced while applying subtle pressure a bad thing now? I guess Arguello's footwork sucks too. If you ask me his generalship is equal to Ali's. He's great at getting a guy to do exactly what he wants without using up excessive energy.

 

Dempsey always said "The sooner the safer" when it came to fighting whether in the ring or the street and I believe he would use this philosophy against Louis as well. This fight does not go the distance let alone 5 rounds. Too much firepower in both men for this to be a boxing match. This is a cobra vs mongoose scenario and the outcome could go either way. If I was betting my life savings I'd pick Dempsey in a 1st or 2nd round ko but I'd have my heart in my mouth the whole time. Jack has to get rid of Joe early before Joe can time Dempsey's bobbing and weaving and plant a powerful right on Dempsey's jaw thus setting up more bad medicine. Can Jack do it? I think so. I think Dempsey gets there first as this is his preferred method and his best chance against Louis. It's not a certainty of course but just my opinion.