jack dempsey vs ken norton...

PP, You seem like a reasonable chap PP, but honestly aside from the film of Dempsey /Tunney when Dempsey was a shell of himself after a 3 year layoff, we have film of Dempsey flattening the giant Willard, Dempsey koing Carpentier, Dempsey outboxing a master boxer Tommy Gibbons, Dempsey koing Bill Brennan, and Dempsey flattening Luis Firpo, all when Dempsey was in his prime what weaknesse"s, have you detected ? He won all those bouts and you must know that an offensive fighter takes chances
and what truly counts is he catches up to his opponent and beats them...
Have you nor anyone on ESB , seen young Dempsey flattening Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Fred fulton, all in devastating fashion ?...Of course not. But the boxing writers of his prime saw these bouts and were terribly impressed by his catlike offense and his power...
I ,not being there take their word and why shouldn"t you 90 years later. ?
Of course a slugger has weaknesses but if in his prime flattens his foes
that is what counts...My man Joe Louis was outboxed many rounds, was floored several times, but it is HOW the BOUT ended that count's.
So with Dempsey, so with Joe Louis...Cheers...

 

While Dempsey undoubtedly had astute managment, he would have done well if he had been managed by the average general forum poster.

I would add that he was on the wrong end of some prety horendous match making for much of his career.

Dempsey was an act created by Dempsey, first and foremost.

He wasn't trying to be the million dollar boxer, but what he happened to be, just happened to translate into that!

 

Why stop there Seamus, Dempsey beat his mom and dad, robbed the poor box in his Church, Raped a 300 pound flat chested woman, started the 1929 depression in America, amongst his VIRTUES...You are a scoundrel and a know nothing S, do you not understand that Billy Miske suffering with Bright's Disease BEGGED his friend Jack Dempsey for a money shot so he could pay his bills as his business failed ? Dempsey complied to help his friend Miske for this last bout, and you demean Dempsey...Much as Joe Louis gave his friend John Henry Louis who was going blind, a last money shot and utterly destroyed Lewis in less than a round ? Honestly S, your utter hatred of Dempsey knows no bounds truly...Lying and hating a fighter so many years after he died is sickening...You must be Bi-Polar I suspect...
Cheers...

 

Nice story that I have heard, I don't know, 10,000 times?

Now, here's a quote from someone present at the bout...

"Jack Dempsey is a bad sport. I don't believe the man has any sand. He certainly is a bum sport. He got behind a helpless Billy Miske and knocked him cold when Billy wasn't looking, and furthermore, when Dempsey didn't have the right to hit him. The KO blow that put Miske to sleep was one of the most cowardly blows I have ever seen. And, it doesn't lessen the offense that Jack Dempsey's personal referee didn't want to prevent that blow."

I can't say that disobeying the rules of a fight and bludgeoning a cripple while he is essentially KO'd doesn't appeal to me a bit, but let's not paint Dempsey out to be a saint... or even unprotected against the rules by his house referees.

 

While I do believe Dempsey was a tough S.O.B., I tend to think he was a tad overrated (by Burt and his ilk, at least) and his power is DEFINITELY overrated.

To state that that Marciano and the others mentioned were a level below Dempsey is a slap in the face to the fighters mentioned and its a symptom of overrating Dempsey.

To say he belongs comfortably in the company of Lewis, Louis, Tyson, Marciano, Holyfield, and others isn't a slight to Dempsey; it's right where he should be. But have no illusions: he isn't a cut above those guys; noone is.

He was just as beatable as anyone else.

 

So, now to assuage your bigotry against Jack Dempsey you now discover an anecdote
by a nobody you can't name, about a split second in time,that you can't collaberate, about an incident in 1920, that may develop in every fight, and that would have disqualified Dempsey, IF IT WERE TRUE...Did it ever occur to you that this reporter might have been a Miske fan ? Was Dempsey disqualified for that Ko ? Seamus, Jack Dempsey didn't need any PERSONAL referee, as he had his own referee, a right cross and a left-
hook.. Hey I got a good idea S, why not dig up Dempsey's coffin remove his corpse
and hang him without a trial ? To think someone like you get's his kicks demeaning a man dead so many years...A couple of posts ago you seemed a reasonable chap,
but your hatred spills over...Dr. Jekyl and Mr Hyde...

 

Nice try, Burt, but it was from H.C. Walker, Sporting Editor of the Detroit Times, who was at the fight.

I can reconcile both my fandom of Dempsey and my estimation of his character and true abilities because I like a good villain and a good show. And I like to think I can tell the difference between "good show" and substance, of which the Dempsey Phenomenon displayed both but perhaps in proportions you might not recognize. To me, his career wreaks more of P.T. Barnum than Joe Louis. That some of his contemporaries could not recognize this only speaks to the seduction of the story created by Rickard and Kearns.

 

So Kearns seduced a million boxing fans ? Tell that to the 25 fighters who dempsey flattened in the first round...When they wake up.:hi:

 

Dempsey had talent, skill and power... and was a not so kind nor gentle human before and during his reign. Kearns and Rickard made him into pure show biz, low risk/high reward. It was a model followed by many, but not all, HW teams for the next century...

 

Dempsey. KO.

 

And why exactly did Dempsey defend his hard won title against Bill Brennan in late 1920 rather than the guy who beat Brennan like a red headed stepchild FOUR TIMES over the previous 20 months, the same guy who was calling for a fight with Dempsey, a guy who had busted his eye after two rounds of sparring?


Meh, must have been the tiger in him.

 

Boxing today is in shambles no doubt about that, but I was never arguing about one era being superior to the other just pointign out the fact we posses very little footage of the men you mentioned from the era. Some of the ones you did mention such as Gibbons I feel to be overrated, Tunney did whatever the hell he pleased with Gibbons and was basically landing at will much like he did against Dempsey (past prime I know). The only footage we posses of Canzoneri was when he was fighting in the 30's where like you said he'd improve from exp.

Also although not my original point, boxing did most certainly improve from the 20's to the 70's when Norton was boxing. The fact that a middleweight and lightheavy were cleaning up the entire era says somethign about the quality of the era IMO, particularly when the greatest light heavy of the 70's (and of the ATGs) Bob Foster tried the same thing he got creamed and made no impact at all.

 

Here's a question for you would Tunney have had much success in the 70's campaigning at heavy? Because he's way better prepared for fighting great boxers and has a style perfectly suited to fighting bigger men as you said.

Please give explanations as I'm sure to learn from someone as knowledgeable as you :good.

 

Your replying to points that I never even made nor implied, there is clearly a difference in the strengths of the era's, Tunney not being as good in one as he would be in the other shows this. I was making the point that there is a reason you didn't see Middlweights and Light Heavies cleaning up the Heavyweights in the 70's is because they got bigger and they got better. I don't expect you to buy this but size makes a difference.

Also what in Tunney's record give you the inclination that he'd even fight Frazier or Foreman past prime or not, let alone beat them? Because his record doesn't show much traces of heavyweights, blacks or punchers.