jack dempsey vs ken norton...

If he had finished Greb, then you would be saying that he never proved his finishing ability against giants like Willard or Fulton.

The bottom line is that these were seen as the heavyweights to beat at the time, and they had a huge size advantage.

 

1918-07-27208Jack Dempsey188

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Federal League Baseball Park, Harrison, New Jersey, United StatesLKO18
time: 0:23 | referee: John P. Eckhardt
Dempsey rushed Fulton at the bell, got inside, and hammered him with a right under the heart and a left to the belly. Fulton floundered and Dempsey stepped back, then hooked a left to the giant's head and a terrific right to the point of the chin. The big man tottered and fell sideways to the floor of the ring, his head resting on his right arm, which pinned down the lower rope of the three which encircled the ring. He tried to push himself up, but collapsed and had to be dragged back to his corner.

 

You're right nobody in the history of boxing hit far (much, alot etc) harder than Dempsey like you said. My mistake, excuse my ignorance. Not even Foreman who was about 35 lbs heavier but hey that doesn't matter. Much like Marciano doesn't hit 'far' harder than middleweight punchers like Graziano.

Also the operative word of my reply is "probably" alot of people like the people i listed in response to Burt.

 

Greb dominated good HW punchers like Miske and Brennan winning shut out decisions. This around the time Miske drew with Dempsey and Brennan hurt Dempsey winning some early rounds. Greb also dominated a puncher in Gibbons before Dempsey in turn dominated him

No Greb didn't beat a HW as good as Dempsey but Dempsey didn't beat anyone nearly as good as Greb either

 

I consider it unfair to refer to Norton as chinny. Apart from the first Garcia fight when Ken was still a little green,it was only the hefty punching types such as Foreman,Shavers and Cooney who'd stop him with single shots.

Muhammad Ali,Larry Holmes,and Jimmy Young may not have been one punch kayo artists,but they were n't exactly powder puff hitters either. Ken stood up to their best shots pretty well,did n't he ?

 

Mike and Brennan were not big punchers, certainly nowhere the league of dempsey. Greg never faced Anyone in the league of dempsey as a puncher, ie Fulton, Langford etc

And tommy gibbons went 2-2 with Greb, so it is not fair to say that he did not beat someone nearly as good as greb

 

Some people are mentioning size and power but I disagree. Even shavers is small compared to guys who are 240 lbs and above but he hit harder than anyone in he history

Dempsey is not as powerful a puncher as shavers or foreman but he was still a better puncher than most hws in boxing history. He demonstrated that he has the power to put away bigger men with ease. IMO norton does not stand a chance

 

While it is pretty impressive that he beat a man so much larger than himself, Big Ben Wray had no amateur experience, had been boxing for two months with only 4 fights to his record, none of which went more than 4 rounds. So he had maybe 16 rounds worth of experience when he fought the heavyweight champion of the world.

I found 3 articles by contemporary papers about the fight when I googled it. One said he was 230 lbs. when they fought and two said 250 lbs. Still impressive, but not as impressive as 300 lbs. Though one did say that previous to his training he had been walking around at 291. I was curious about this fighting figure because I wanted to see if there was a bigger weight divide in that fight than in the Haye Valuev fight.

His victory over a 37 year old Jess Willard who'd only started boxing at the age of 27 is still better, since Willard had victories over top competition. Neither man is the fighter Ken Norton is and if we're judging power by unlikely victories and broken bones, Ken Norton beat Ali in their first fight where he broke Ali's jaw; something neither Shavers nor Foreman could do.

People are acting like Ken Norton has a glass jaw, but three of the four guys who knocked him out are considered some of the strongest punchers ever: Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney. On the other hand, the fourth guy who knocked Norton out was Jose Luis Garcia who started his career at 160 lbs and only weighed 188 for their fight.

I still have Dempsey winning by knockout, but there's a lot of food for thought.

 

My post was a rebuttal for those doubting Dempsey could hurt a man Norton's size.I think half killing Willard ,ruining Fulton ,using Firpo as a yo yo, and smashing Wray's jaw , proves that he could.

Norton could not fight on the back foot ,which is where he would be if he was in the ring with Dempsey.

 

Any boxer with power can put away bigger men with ease, difference is putting one away who was actually good. Norton is a very good boxer and should this fight have taken place and Dempsey have won, Norton would be far and away the greatest technical boxer Dempsey had defeated aswell as the biggest man Dempsey fought worth a damn.

In any case from several credible sources it appears as though Norton might have Mexican or some other type of African decent in him and therefore this fight would not have happened as blacks refused to fight Dempsey.

 

The Gibbons Dempsey fought was 32 and coming off 2 losses to Greb who avenged both defeats to Gibbons, 1 of which happened when Greb was 21 with Gibbons 24. Greb would have been a tougher challenge than Gibbons

Miske and Gibbons also were notable punchers and Brennan hurt Dempsey himself

Greb also twice dominated Meehan who has wins/draws against Dempsey.

And then ofcourse he beat Tunney 2 or 3 times who would go on to dominate Dempsey

Yes I'd say Greb is a class above anyone Dempsey beat and assuming he walks through Greb easily is a stretch.

 

So if Dempsey defeated Norton , "Norton would be far and away the best technical boxer Dempsey had defeated"... You ever hear of a chap named Tommy Gibbons ? As good a" technical" boxer EVER...atsch

 

What is this obsession with "power punchers" as Foreman or Shavers.?..Sure they had one punch heft behind them, but give me the Benny Leonard,
Jack dempsey, Joe Louis,Ray Robinson, type of "combination
and handspeed power " that get's to the target first any day. Heft behind a punch is trumped by faster combinations anytime...Look at the greatest one punch artists like Aurelio Herrera, George Ko Chaney, Bob Satterfield, Julian Jackson etc who could hit like hell with one punch but never became great fighters...And the left-hook Dempsey floored the giant Willard in Toledo [only time Willard was floored] had great torque speed behind the blow..And consider Dempsey had to punch UP to reach Willard's 6ft6"
chin...So give me speedy combo punches anytime, if the left doesn't put you down the following right will do the job...

 

Fulton and Willard couldn't fight. Now Harry Wills, that's a different story. There is a big man who actually could fight. Had Dempsey fought and finished him, He would move up 7 places on my all time list, and way up on my all time finishers list. Had he fought and knocked out greb(who easily beat all the men dempsey actually chose to defend his title against) he would move up to number 2 or 3 on my all time list, and perhaps number 1 or 2 on my all time finishers list.


Harry Greb and Harry Wills, two very important fights Dempsey missed out on. Dempsey may have beaten the #3-10 contenders of his era, but if he missed out on the numbers 1 and 2...then depth doesn't trump quality.

 

A 1951 Joe Louis would have won wide unanimous decisions over both of them with his jab alone