jack dempsey vs ken norton...

A prime Dempsey has this fight won during the staredown alone, Ol` Kenny ain`t got a chance in my honest opinion and gets blown out within a few rounds tops. Even an over the hill Dempsey against a prime Norton I would favour Jack, his legs and ring mobility were greatly reduced by that point in his career but then again with that come forward backfoot in a bucket style of his Jack isn`t have to go looking for him, Kenny likely gets stopped while perhaps slightly ahead on points.

Prime Dempsey KO1 Norton
Past Prime Dempsey KO6 Norton

 

PP,there is a difference between knowing about a Jack Dempsey by reading his W-L record on box.rec, and being knowledgable about Dempsey from decades of reading about him and the harsh decade he fought in as a hobo and a hungry fighter without proper nutrition, til he by a stroke of luck met a wily, tough old cuss named Jack Kearns, and his great career took off...I am not a historian, but from the time as a little boy have "devoured" boxing info for over six decades...Yes before his unwise fight with Gene Tunney, after a three year layoff,living the "good" life in Hollywood,
Dempsey without a darn tune-up, without his mentor Jack Kearns and being embroiled in a bitter lawsuit with each other, had an additional tragedy just BEFORE the bout...His older brother Bernie who started young Jack
teaching Dempsey the fundamentals of boxing such as putting the teen age Dempsey in a cage 5 ft high or so, to not allow him to stand erect but
develop a crouch, teaching him also to chew pine tar to strengthen Dempsey's jaw and to soak his face in pickle brine thus preventing his face from cuts..All this Bernie, endeared himself to Dempsey and Bernie became a vital part of Dempsey's camp...Well just before the ill advised Tunney bout Dempsey heard that his beloved brother Bernie KILLED his wife and COMMITED suicide...Dempsey was devastated , but tough S.O.B. that he was went on with the bout...Dempsey for the rest of his life took care of Bernie's kids and his aged parents...After he retired he helped his old foe John Lester Johnson when JL was in a nursing home and helped Johnson with money before Johnson, death...He didn't have to do this as no one knew years later that Johnson was in a nursing home,as he was unkown by then...Dempsey also paid the funeral expenses of Big George Godfrey his
sparring partner in Dempsey's halycon days...He didn't have to do that also...but contrary to the know nothing haters of this decent man, he lived the rest of his long life a figure beloved by ALL even his old opponents..
He was called the "CHAMP" til the day he died, for a good reason..He was a hell of a fighter who gave no quarter and asked for none in return...And he died a gentleman, and who can ask for more, except his young detractors on ESB..Hope I answered your question PP...

 

:deal

 

We posses footage of about 3-4 of those fighters, the rest you'll have to go on what the reporters wrote about them at the time. By such accounts Dempsey could level a redwood forest simply by directing his ferocious gaze toward them.

Even Tunney arguably the best boxer in that era (boxer in the purest sense of the term) had flaws, kept his hands VERY low, chin high, little lateral movement etc.

 

Also not included in boxrec is what a sensationally dirty fighter Dempsey was and how Kearns was quite often able to secure a "house ref" to let these infractions pass. Jimmy Dougherty ring a bell? How about the foul blows he required to subdue Tommy Gibbons who in turn had to say, "Dempsey is easy to feint, and easy to hit. He isn't the man killer you've heard about. .. Jim Doughterty won't referee for me again. He didn't say anything about Dempsey's fouls but when I got Dempsey with a back hand, Dougherty warned me."

The Dempsey Legend is every bit as much the artifice of Kearns and Rickard as it was the product of Dempsey's fistic skill. The playacting of interest in fighting Wills without any intention whatsoever of following through is first and foremost in that grand production. Rather, as was the case with many a smart management team, cherry pick the lousiest opponents possible who can still guarantee a good gate. I don't mean to overly criticize Jack for this. From Jack Johnson up through Riddick Bowe, there is quite a tradition of this activity. However, I would not put Dempsey in the class of Louis, Marciano, Ali, Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis, who truly fought all comers and the best of their era's.

 

They had hands low, but moved heads a lot.

 

Seamus, you finally got it right by posting " I would not put Dempsey in the class of Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis "...This statement coming from your esteemed lips is CORRECT...Ray Arcel , who knew a smidgen more than you,said til the day he died Dempsey and Joe Louis were a CLASS above any heavyweight he had ever seen...And so did the several hundred sportswriters who voted Dempsey the best heavyweight
by a wide margin...As did Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling attest that Dempsey was tops, but almighty
Seamus somehow knows better....
To butress your lack of knowledge you now imply from your post that Dempsey was a DIRTY fighter...Well reliable sources has established that Jack Dempsey took TWO showers EVERY DAY,therefore he was not a dirty fighter....What next S, Dempsey beat his mother ? Honestly, I don't know
what to make of the likes of you...Where is Sigmund Freud when we need him...Cheers, I think.:hi:

 

Boxing today is a dying art.Anyone who thinks otherwise is not in the real world. Boxers had to learn their trade in the 20's.

All those flaws Tunney had, yet no one ko'd him, and only one man ever floored him,strange that.:think

Jimmy Slattery, Tommy Loughran kept their hands low ,they are rated by those who saw them fight as master boxers .

Who is the consensus greatest heavyweight? Where were his hands ?

You have had two -time champs in the past 20 years who could not slip a jab, and had no idea what a feint was ,Tito Trinidad is one of them. You have a few, a very few who could hang with the past greats ,Marquez ,Pacquino,Mayweather, but not many others , they think its all about offence ,and have no idea how to slip punches..

A fighter like Canzoneri was boxing from the age of 8, he had 171 fights and went 1,351 professional rounds. Do you think he did not know boxing inside and out, forwards and backwards? The more you practice it the better you get.

Fighters today box once, maybe twice a year, many in the 20's were fighting twice a week. It was brutal but it meant the best survived . You have club fighters challenging for titles today
Arreola, Chisora ect,they would be 8 round supports in the 20's .
Please don't tell me boxing has improved since the 20's because I don't buy it.

A guy like Pascal has had what ,around 30 fights? He was fighting for world titles after 15 pro bouts. The depth of talent simply is not there any more. Thats why 40 plus boxers are still rated in the top ten because they are big fish in small ponds so far as skill goes.

 

You gotta love it when burt comes out swinging.

Just think if Jack's first defence would have been against Wills to unify the championship, how much debate would be lost through the years?

 

Luf, if I come out "swinging" as you put it , it is for a good reason...Until I
learned how to operate my computer and got on ESB, the name Jack Dempsey evoked the name of a great heavyweight who flourished in harder times 90 years before....He was considered all those years as one of the greatest offensive fighters ever and upon retirement was a beloved figure who I, growing up would see at MSG main events recieving great ovations . He was always called the Champion... And the boxing world respected him, black and white, from Harry Wills to Bill Tate, to John Lester Johnson to Big George Godfrey....A man's man who was a product of his time... Imagine how I felt when discovering ESB, to read from such experts that Dempsey was a vile racist, was overated, couldn't box,
was too small for today's sloths, and I reading this revisionism from
people who know squat about Dempsey and his times, kept on spewing
this garbage ad infinitum,day after day..To enhance their social agenda
by suggesting that Dempsey who incidentally had Native American blood,
was a bigot who was "scared" to fight Harry Wills, THOUGH THEY DID SIGN FOR A BOUT THAT WAS CANCELLED BECAUSE THE PROMOTER COULDN'T
COME UP WITH THE MONEY...This is a fact that these posters obliterate from their mind to fit there "see how noble I am agenda, NINETY years
ago in a different age...By me keeping quite and allowing today's revisionists to distort history, would be allowing these" do gooders" to
prevail , and that isn't in my nature...One more thing Dempsey haters, I
have as much or more empathy for injustice as you do , but it is tempered with common sense and the truth...And to some of the posters who agree with me, thank you loads...:hi:

 

Mc, I agree with you 100%...If practice doesn't improve one, why is a college course more than one year ? Today there are main event fighters who couldn't get a 6 round bout in the old MSG...

 

It's a tragic story and you won't hear me being judgemental of JD on a personal level Burt. 1 of my best friend's uncle killed himself and his wife, my friend's father, a poor working man, raised his nieces/nephews like his own continually working 80 hours a week

Burt I haven't just looked at Dempsey's boxrec record, I've seen on his fights available on film. I see his abilities AND his weaknesses on film. You won't hear me knock his ability to turn a left hook over or quickly sit on his punches

 

Well done ... SQ truly believes the pre- 1940 fighters were a monster grade below as a whole ... I just wonder who taught the post 1940 fighters ...

 

Nice little speech but you didn't answer my points that Dempsey was an "act" created by Rickard and Kearns, one who benefited from their home cooking and clever matchmaking. Hitting a sick Miske when he was already down was deplorable. Being helped back into the ring against Firpo. Fouling Gibbons for 15 rounds. Being brokered and forged out of service in The Great War. Going through publicity motions to feign an attempt to sign the Wills fight with no real intention...

 

i'm gonna enjoy sitting back and watch burt and seamus go toe to toe