Jack Dempsey vs rocky marciano

While I agree with these points, cuts stoppages are rare in boxing. Maybe 2%,of all title fights are stopped on cuts being the primary reason and if one happened, Rocky proved his could fight well with them.

The non surprise is you left out a few things.

1 ) Stamina. Rocky's stamina is much better than Dempsey's, and he could very well smother JD's power some or go under Dempsey's hook and work the body.

2 ) Consistency in the ring. Big edge for Rocky

3 ) Heart and will to win. Edge Marciano, few had greater.

4 ) Ring Generalship. I think Rocky fought just a little smarter.

Ha ha, yes you could. But Foreman hit much harder and was more durable. Frazier's style put him on the train tracks.

Dempsey and Marciano are about the same weight with comparable power. Foreman and Frazier were not.

I agree that Dempsey was quicker, longer, ect..I just think the tides could turn if Dempsey does not end it inside say six rounds.

 

All true. Dempsey’s chin isn’t as great as his fans claim. More like it was just good, but not always reliable.

I view the Sharkey win with an asterisk win for Dempsey.

You have to say Marciano had the better title reign, and had less trouble overall. And when was down it was vs. two class hall of fame fighters, but he quickly recovered and took care of business.

The other fight you did not list was Firpo, who had very poor skills. Firpo floored Dempsey too. You have to wonder what Rocky would do it he had Dempsey in trouble, or if the fight went past round 8, where Dempsey wasn't getting knockouts.

Dempsey’s primary weakness was stamina. Match him vs. a guy who challenges you stamina in every round, and it becomes more of a weakness.

 

"from 1918 to 1926 Dempsey was undefeated"

He actually lost a fight in 1918, but okay it was a four round fight,

but he didn't fight at all in 1922, 1924, and 1925,

fairly easy to go undefeated if one doesn't fight.

From July 1921 to September 1926, Dempsey had only the two fights with Gibbons and Firpo in July and September 1923.

Calling this consistent is just weird to me. It is more being inactive.

 

McVEA

# 4 all time is very very high regardless of weight. Also, Walcott only fought in the heavyweight division. His rating was given as a puncher at heavyweight.

Your attempting to criticize Marciano for dominating and winning a fight over Harold Mitchell, while facts show Dempsey was flattened in 1 round by a fighter with 22 LOSSES on his record up to that point!

Going into the Dempsey fight, Flynn had lost his previous fight to 22-5 Bob Devere, and would lose 5 of his next 7 fights after the Dempsey fight to Fat Larue, 24-16 Jimmy Darcy, and Jeffry Schumann making his pro debut!!!


Again, Marciano NEVER lost. Dempsey DID, to below average fighters by knockout defeat.

He got up, at the count of 2, unfazed, on steady legs, and went right back after them. Dempsey laid on his back against Flynn for 20 seconds, and was made to do the chicken dance against 172lb georges carpentier!

Archie Moore went 22-1 with 19 knockouts in pro fights against men at or above 200lb

I talk about Durability. All this shows is Dempsey did not have as good as a chin as Marciano BECAUSE he got floored 9 times. Marciano was never floored early in his career as a professional, because Charlie Goldman stated Marciano had an iron chin.

Again, Dempsey was floored 3 times and knocked out of the ring by Firpo, having to be saved by a type writer. Marciano was even't floored 3 times in his professional career! Can you imagine if Marciano had Dempsey in this much trouble? Marciano had skills and finishing ability, unlike fat Firpo.

Funny you mention this. In Dempsey's 35th pro fight Dempsey fought a man named Al Norton who had 20 pro fights with only 9 victories!! Dempsey only managed a DRAW At least Marciano BEAT the tomato cans he faced. Even better, Dempsey got a 2nd shot against Al Norton two fights later. AGAIN ANOTHER DRAW It took him three opportunities to finally defeat the all time great Al Norton.

Willie Meehan was a 5'9 roly poly journeyman with 29 career losses on his record. He had a roll of fat around his midsection. Prior to beating Jack Dempsey, Willie Meehan had recently lost to 21-6-8 KO Kruvosky!

A supposed ATG fighter and fast finisher like Dempsey should have been able to destroy this type of journeyman level opponent. Marciano defeated ALL of his journeyman level opponents. Dempsey did not, he lost not only once but TWICE to Willie Meehan.


"Willie Meehan is still the riddle of the ring. The San Francisco marvel made a bum out of the Salt Lake champion, Jack Dempsey, last night in the Emeryville open-air arena, and he did the job so thoroughly that there was no room left for argument. Dempsey may come back and lick Meehan some future day, but last night he was as helpless as a man with both hands tied. Then by way of variation, Willie began pulling some of his circus stuff, and Dempsey could not land a glove on him. The Salt Lake man looked just as bad in the ring last night as Al Norton did when the latter undertook to box Meehan in the ball park last Thanksgiving Day. The judges handed down a unanimous verdict, but there was no need. Meehan won by from here to next week."

Dempsey's 36th pro fight was a loss to a 5'9 Fat Journeyman with 29 career losses.

The big differences between Marciano and Dempsey is Marciano always found a way to win. Even in his worst performances, Marciano still found a way to get the W. Dempsey, on the other hand, did NOT. He lost twice to a 5'9 journeyman, he was knocked out in 1 round by a 37 year old Journeyman with 22 losses, and lost 19 out of 20 rounds against former light heavyweight gene tunney. He also fought to a draw with 9-8 Al Norton TWICE.

Also,

despite facing poor opposition at times, Marciano also fought and BEAT the very best of his era. Dempsey faced poor opposition, and DID NOT take on the best of his era. Dempsey's title reign consisted of dying men, men losing title eliminators, and a crude talentless hype job from south america, then he sat on his ass for 3 years while Greb and Wills pleaded for a shot.

You make it seem like Marciano was this decorated amateur who had been groomed by Charlie Goldman for years prior to turning professional.

I have some facts for you:

Marciano did not even start to train with Charlie Goldman until his 5th professional fight, and didn't start training with him until then.

Marciano had a very limited amateur career with only a dozen fights, and NO help from any trainer of substance.

Marciano was thrown to the wolves early in his career by promoter Sam Silverman. Silverman did not like Al Weill and attempted to expose Marciano. Silverman threw Rocky in his 2nd and 3rd professional fights in with 8-0 and 15-0 New England prospects Bobby Ross and Bobby Quinn in attempt to have Marciano lose and get rid of Al Weill. Silverman later threw Marciano in with the Cagey much more experienced Tiger Ted Lowry. Silverman said "I thought Lowry was gonna lick Rocky, I was fed up with Weill".

By the time Marciano really started to develop through Goldman's teachings was around the Layne fight in mid 1951, and he continued to improve his defense dramatically by 1955 when he took on Moore he was a finished product

 

Tremendous post overall, but are you sure Marciano only met Goldman after his 5th pro fight?
If I recall, Rock and Ally Columbo met up with Goldman before his first pro fight, whereupon Goldman gave Rocky the once-over during a sparring session.
Maybe my memory is a little askew though...

 

Meehan would beat many fighters over four rounds. He would have beaten Rocky also. Means nothing. Real question would be could he beat either man over 10, 12 or 15 rounds. Probably not.

 

You're right, I changed the way I worded it . I went back through marcianos biography. I meant to say Marciano did not begin training full time with Charley Goldman until after his 5th pro fight which is the first time Goldman was in his corner.

Marciano met Goldman before then..one time in a tryout sparring session against prospect wade chancey to see if Goldman and Weill would add Rocky to their stable. Chancey boxed Marciano 3 rounds..the first two rounds chancey easily outboxed Marciano and Weill was seen shaking his head and laughing in the corner. Then in round 3, out of nowhere Rocky threw a roundhouse right hand(similar to Layne Knockout) which crashed on Chauncey's jaw...chancey crumbled into the ropes out on his feet staggering. " TIME TIME!" Charley Goldman shouted!!!! Weill immediately went from laughing to serious mode. He walked over to Goldman and was like "gee what do you think of this kid?" Goldman replied "he's short clumsy and has two left feet but my god can he punch. I can work with him"

After this session, Marciano went back to providence and trained on his own, Weill wasn't ready to commit full time until Marciano proved himself. it wasn't until Marciano knocked out 15-0 Eddie Ross out cold with one right hand in his 3rd pro fight did Weill call Marciano and say he would send Goldman to began training with him soon. Goldman finally showed up in marcianos 5th fight and began training him shortly afterward.

Marciano originally met with 1930s heavyweight journeyman boxing trainer Joe Monte to train him. Monte looked over Rocky and said " your too big to be a light heavyweight and too small to be a heavyweight. Forget it, find another job you won't make it"- 1948

 

sure sure you keep telling yourself that

Funny Dempsey, whose fans base think he was some freakishly fast starter, couldn't put Meehan away early. You would think a 4 round fight would benefit Dempsey based on the way his fans rave about his fast starting ability

Dempsey fans have more excuses than any other fan base I know. Marciano fans don't have excuses because Marciano proved himself in the ring and with his record, he doesn't need any defending. His record speaks for itself, as does his filmed performances.

Dempsey on the other hand is filled with excuses, to explain his embarrassing defeats, drawing the color line, ducking his number 1 contender for 7 straight years, defending his title against dying men and losers of title eliminaters, ducking a 165lb man, ducking Langford in 1917, and losing 19 out of 20 rounds to a former light heavyweight. His entire legacy is based on a brutal beat down over a 37 year old champion who hadn't fought in 4 years and who lumbered around the ring like a sick calf after his mother.

 

After he drew with Dempsey Willie Meehan beat Sam Langford.:think

Why didn't Langford ko him?

It's true Meehan had 22 losses on his record at that time.
It's also true he had 87 wins too!
Harold Mitchell never beat anyone worth mentioning.

You have some facts for me Suze? Taken off box rec.
Marciano had a very limited career. Not as limited as Dempsey's which was non- existant

Some facts for you.
Marciano started training in NY with Goldman prior to his 5th fight, commuting for Brockton .
Marciano had either 13 amateur fights according to Box rec or 30 amateur fights according to Hauser winning several regional Golden Gloves and several AAU titles.

I've traced 15 with 5 losses.And he lost a paid fight, in April1946 while still in the Army he took $30 to fight Henry Lester and was dsq'd for kneeing his opponent
.
Some of Marciano's amateur opponents included.

Joe De Angelis
Henry Lester [ Marciano received $30]
Charlie Mortimer
Coley Wallace
Joe Sidlaski
Fred Fischera
George McGinnis
Willie James

In June 1948, 5 months before I was born, Marciano walked in to the CYO Gym on17th street Manhattan ,Weill had told Goldman to set up a sparring session so they could gauge Marciano's capabilities to see if he was worth taking on as a pro.Marciano had already fought as a pro , boxing Lee Epperson for $35,to protect his amateur status, Marciano boxed under the name Rocky Mack. His record was corrected to include this bout in his pro resume much later .

 

I just don't like the way Dempsey fans turn a blind eye to all of dempseys flaws and shortcomings, then they turn around and criticize and nitpick other greats for the littlest things on there far superior record to Dempsey. I've never seen a fan base with more excuses than Jack Dempsey's.
If you read all my posts you will find I don't like white fighters who drew the color line against black fighters. I think it's despicable. I give far more credit to the old time white fighters like Lamotta Marciano Pep Maxim canzoneri corbett(Peter Jackson) for taking on the black murders row when other white fighters steered clear.

I personally think Jack Dempsey is the most overrated fighter of all time. His fans attempt to rank him as the greatest heavyweight of all time despite the fact he never fought the two overwhelmingly best contenders of his era, one of them arguably having a better record than Jack himself!

 

It's been a really good thread. I've enjoyed reading it.

 

This wouldn't be a distance fight that's for sure. It's either Dempsey early or Marciano a little later. Dempsey, as was his wont would come from the start looking to end things quickly and take it to Rocky who was a slower starter. The first few rounds would be very interesting and exciting to say the least. If Jack's gonna win he would probably do it then. If Rocky survives the onslaught he could get the job done around the 10th I feel. Helluva fight no matter who wins though.

 

EM, Consistency means that when a person or fighter excel's
in what he engages in to form a usual basis...It does not mean that he has to do this a certain amount of times...
Yes Dempsey did not fight as often as one wishes today..No doubt. But in my eyes and multitudes of boxing fans a writers of his time, he would have been a hell of a menace to get in the ring with...The Dempsey who after hooking up with Jack Kearns
who flattened Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky, Bill Brennan [the first fight] for Brennan's first stoppage loss, George Carpentier , Jess Willard [70 lb. heavier]
Luis angel Firpo, [crude but powerful], Tommy Gibbons decision
who was a defensive master, was surely at this juncture
CONSISTENT in his endeavors...During those times Dempsey became pure and simply the greatest boxing draw of all times,
for a darn good reason...He brought a ferocity into the ring that
packed the houses for one good reason. He was a beast in the ring and at this time Dempsey mixed middleweight speed and dexterity with powerful punching that belied his 190 pounds..
Only on ESB 90 years later, JD is the Rodney Dangerfield of
heavyweight boxing. "He get's no respect"...