Jack Dempsey vs rocky Marciano

Did anyone say otherwise?

 

Yes it could , just as a Dempsey v Louis match up could, but I'm guessing you would be strongly in favour of Louis there.

 

Yes it could , just as a Dempsey v Louis match up could, but I'm guessing you would be strongly in favour of Louis there.

I'm not posturing I'm genuinely puzzled why you take every opportunity to be sarky ? It doesn't bother me in the slightest,it 's just mystifying
Just so you know there is no bullseye on me!

 

Some perspective
When Dempsey fought Flynn the Fireman had over 60 wins to his credit he had fought for the world title ,and beaten fighters of the calibre of Langford ,Kaufman,Gardner,Ross ,Squires, and Morris.He was never a great fighter but he had mixed with the best and given many of them problems.It was 21 years old Dempsey's 33rd fight.


28 years old Marciano's 32nd and 33rd fights were over Keene Simmons 8-8-1 and Harold Mitchell 4-14-3.
Not so hard to avoid losing if you are fighting nobodies!
Marciano had the luxury of having his manager being the matchmaker for MSG and having Charlie Goldman as his trainer.21years old Dempsey was trained by his brother Bernie for the first Flynn fight, he had no manager and no team looking out for his interests, matching him with cannon fodder,giving him the luxury of soft touches to learn his trade.

 

Dempsey had the superior recovery ability. Check out the Firpo fight, he gets hurt then 5 seconds later is ok. Same thing with the Sharkey fight. Dempsey got rocked, 5 seconds later he's fresh as the first bell. Tunney even noted that Dempsey had great recovery ability and was dangerous in 5 second intervals.

"Jack could recover faster than any man I ever fought. He was dangerous with a five-second interval"

Dempsey was broke, starving, and didn't warm up properly at the time of the Flynn fight. I don't dismiss this knockout but there is an asterisk by it.

Marciano had the better chin.

 

While I would say their chins were about on a par.I think the rest of this post is spot on.

 

"Marciano had the better chin."

Yes.

"Jack could recover faster than any man I ever fought."

Fair enough. But this Tunney opinion doesn't cover Jeffries, Louis, Marciano, Ali, or any of the other ATG candidates.

"Dempsey had the superior recovery ability."

My take is you are mixing up different things. There is simply no evidence to conclude Dempsey could recover better than Marciano as Marciano always recovered to win the fight. Dempsey didn't always. What is shown on film is Dempsey recovering FURTHER than Marciano ever did as Dempsey is more severely hurt on film against Firpo than Marciano ever is.

"Dempsey was broke, starving, and didn't warm up properly"

Broke? Perhaps, but a lot of fighters have fought when in financial difficulty. It actually is usually an incentive.

Starving? Makes no sense. Dempsey was a local attraction. The fight drew a record gate with special trains set up to bring in fans from outside of town. Impossible for me to believe Dempsey wouldn't have been fed by someone. Anyway, what is the evidence he was starving? He might have been for some earlier fights but not this one.

"didn't warm up properly"

Possibly, and the result was he got knocked out in 20 seconds.

 

Some more perspective.

You make a valid point about the weak opponents Marciano was fighting in the first half of 1951. I wonder if it had something to do with Marciano getting married with these being just keep busy fights until he got serious later in the year with KO's of Rex Layne, Freddie Beshore, and Joe Louis. Still, you make a good point.

It is fair to point out that Dempsey had his share of set-ups also even after he became a contender. After wins over such as Gunboat Smith and Bill Brennan, Dempsey had fights against--records according to box rec--
Fred Saddy 3-16-1918 (0-1-0)
Tom Riley 3-25-1918 (0-3-0)
Dan Ketchell 5-22-1918 (0-4-0)
and even after the Fulton fight
Jack Moran 9-14-1918 (5-9-3)

Dempsey's 33rd opponent Flynn was excellent compared to Marciano's 33rd opponent.

True, but misleading as Marciano had already faced top ten competition in the 37-0 Roland LaStarza in his 26th fight, and had fought two other men, Muscato and Shkor, who had been in the top ten earlier in their careers although now on the downslide, as after all was Flynn who was 37 and on a 10-18-3 run going into the Dempsey fight.

Making this sort of argument one could point out that Ted Lowry in his 21st fight was much earlier in his career for Marciano to meet such an experienced fighter than Dempsey was meeting at a similar experience point. Dempsey's 21st opponent was Cyril Kohen, who had no record. Lowry was 63-49-9 going into the Marciano fight and had scored wins or draws against several men who were at one time or another in the top ten, as well as giving decent accounts of himself against top men.

Dempsey was 21. Marciano 26 (for Lowry)

Very different careers. Marciano didn't really start his until he was 24. Dempsey started young. Marciano always had the advantage of maturity, which probably helped him keep his attention on business. On the other hand, a late start is NOT an advantage in any sport. It is all speculation, but how would Dempsey have done if he started his career in 1918 or 1919? His career would certainly have been much different.

Marciano had Goldman for his trainer.

Yes, and this was an advantage, but just a fact of life.

The bottom line is that when Marciano stepped up against Lowry and LaStarza, he managed to win the fights, and defeated both decisively in rematches.

"Not so hard to avoid losing if you are fighting nobodies."

True enough, but Marciano's whole career wasn't nobodies. My take is he ended up beating better men than any Dempsey actually defeated.

 

If it gives you something to hang your hat on and you want to ignore the circumstances of the fight and the direct comparison to Marciano.s 33rd fight when he was 7 years more mature than Dempsey and fighting a palooka so be it. Just don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.

 

And he showed good defensive skills while not allowing Walcott to follow up.

Dempsey doesn't show that sort of survival skills if put on the defensive.

 

"don't expect anyone to take you too seriously"

I don't take seriously whether anyone takes me seriously or not.

 

on the original question,

styles make fights and my take is that Marciano's style might well be Dempsey's worst nightmare style wise. I don't see Marciano retreating but coming forward and off the Firpo and Sharkey fights (and newspaper accounts of other fights, especially with Meehan) Dempsey had more trouble with come forward fighters who went after him. Marciano had more punch and stamina and a better chin than any of them.

Also, I think his greater height would work against Dempsey fighting another fighter who prefers using a crouch. Marciano will be the guy who can get and stay lower.

I like Marciano by a KO.

 

Why are you picking the Lowry fight a fight I might add which many thought Marciano lost? Lowry has no Sam Langford scalps on his record does he? his whole career was that of a journeyman ,not so Flynn who was a contender and a world title challenger.No one would have seriously have contemplated putting Lowry in a world title fight at any stage of his career. Many also thought Lastarza was robbed against Marciano first time around, so rather shaky examples! Marciano had the advantage of more than maturity he had a manager who made the matches for the premier arena in the country as such he enjoyed certain level of protection that Dempsey never experienced. For example Dempsey was facing Willie Meehan in his 35th fight Meehan was 76-11-32 and had wins over Miske ,Langford,Smith to come.
Marciano was in with the luckless lhy Red Applegate having his next to last fight, he had won I of his last 12 bouts and would finish on12-16-2 Very cautious matchmaking for a 34-0-0 prospect!

 

Dempsey's superior speed would carry him to a stoppage victory over a guy who was equally as tough as him. Plenty of thrills and spills beforehand.

 

I concede that Marciano's early 1951 opponents were not worthy of a contender. He should have been matched tougher.
But he also was starting that summer.

Lowry and Flynn. Flynn was the better man for his career, but he was 37 and had been slipping for a long time. I concede he may still have been better than the 29 year old Lowry, but I question by how much. Marciano actually won the fights with Lowry and LaStarza and also defeated both in rematches. Dempsey went out in 20 seconds against Flynn.

"certain level of protection that Dempsey never experienced"

As a young fighter coming up. It is balanced by his championship reign in which he never fought Harry Wills who most thought was his outstanding contender for almost his entire reign.

And you imply I guess that the officials were in the tank for Marciano. Do you actually have evidence of this? Also, what difference would tanking judges have made if Marciano got knocked out like Dempsey did?

Marciano was physically older and mature, but he did not have that much ring experience, having started so late.

Dempsey fought Meehan in his 35th fight. And Marciano fought Layne in his 36th fight and Louis in his 38th fight. And had fought LaStarza in his 26th fight.