Jack Dempsey vs rocky Marciano

Interesting points Edward.

Now that I think about it, Dempsey didn't have access to a Turkey sandwhich before the Flynn fight?

 

I don't imply anything, but several reporters felt Marciano got the rub of the green in both the first Lowry and Lastarza fights.

"The crowd of 3,696 booed the decision and some wondered if Lowry had thrown the fight. "There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who had come close to knocking out Marciano in the second, third and fourth rounds, deliberately bogged down in his attack after the fourth stanza," Thomas wrote. "Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the fourth. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano."

In his book Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, Russell Sullivan wrote the following:

"It was Lowry, not Marciano, who was on the verge of scoring an early knockout, stinging Marciano with two terrific rights in the first round and then rocking him with two mighty uppercuts in the second. By the fourth, a staggered Marciano seemed just one punch away from being knocked out. But then, inexplicably, Lowry stopped fighting and retreated into a shell despite warnings from the referee to open up and a cascade of boos from the crowd. To many, it appeared that Lowry was deliberately carrying Marciano. Was foul play afoot? Was Lowry getting paid to lose? Or was he merely tiring? Whatever the reason, a revived Marciano managed to rally in the late rounds even though many of his punches missed their mark or lacked force. On the basis of his aggressiveness and constant punching, Marciano won a unanimous decision from the judges. Most observers felt, however, that Lowry should have won."
Lowry, who earned $2,500 for the fight, denied he threw the fight. "I beat Rocky that night and that’s it," he said. "He changed his strategy in the fifth round and made a fight of it, but I won two of the last six rounds after winning the first four. It was a hometown decision."


"Jessie Abramson of the New York Daily Herald called the decision "paper thin and exceedingly odd." According to newspaper reports, it was condemned around ringside as a miscarriage of justice."

 

Dempsey claimed he went into the fight with a damaged right hand injured in a bowling alley.
At this time Dempsey had arrived by riding the rods into the area, he was surviving on75 cents a day, payment for sparring with Carl Morris, the 75 cents had to pay for his room and board, in his first autobiography he stated that lunch consisted of a dough nut a day.He had tried to get work as a sparring partner for Frank Moran but was considered too puny .
Dempsey had fallen out with his last manager JohnReisler a flesh peddler who wanted to use him as pure cannon fodder.When 19years old Dempsey refused to take on Sam Langford and Gunboat Smith in what would have been mismatches,
Reisler went around badmouthing Dempsey and doors were then slammed in his face.Dempsey's entourage consisted solely of his brother Bernie and they couldn't afford to turn down any opportunities that came their way however risky they were.

.At the same stage of his career the 7 years older Marciano had the benefit of a fulltime trainer ,and manager, a regular training schedule , diet ,and fulltime seconds. This matchup could go either way my pick based on better technique, faster hands ,faster feet, and better resistance to cuts is Dempsey by tko.

 

Dempsey was the far superior technical fighter. Not close in this respect.

 

At the end of the bout, do the judges raise scorecards based on technique? Would Nadia Comaneci beat Dempsey?

49-0.

 

It was what made the difference Saturday night.50-0-0
Plus I don't think the scorecards would be needed here.

 

Marciano recovered from the Walcott knockdown to win the fight 12 rds later. Dempsey recovered from being knocked out of the ring by Firpo to in turn knock Firpo out the very next rd.

I think we have an honest difference in the definition of recover.

Broke - He was a vagrant.
Starving - That's what a vagrant does. Fighters didn't get paid a lot back then either. Dempsey was a sparring partner for Carl Morris and could barely afford a shitty doughnut for lunch off of the wages he was being paid. Joe the Barber had ruined his name back east so that didn't make things any easier for him. Dempsey had to ride the rods all the way back to Kansas City!

Here are two excerpts from Dempsey's autobiography:
"A week or so after I arrived in Pueblo, Colorado, I got a notice saying that a C.O.D. package had arrived. Not only did I have to work to eat but now I had to have the money to collect the package as well. After a week or so I found that I still had the shorts, and later I borrowed some dough from a guy in the local pool hall." (Dempsey pg. 53).

"The United States wasn't involved as yet, but local hospitals and the Red Cross had already started collecting blood just in case. I offered mine, only to be refused and told to keep it since I looked like I could use it myself." (Dempsey pgs. 53-54).

Clearly at the time Dempsey wasn't the money maker you believe him to be. Also note that at this time Dempsey was still married to Maxine Cates who took a lot/most of his money that he made in the ring.

 

I re-read these relevant parts today.Good post!

 

Unbelievable the kinds of conditions an allstar like Dempsey had to endure just to make it to the world stage.

 

Facts are facts its possible that given a level playing field Dempsey would still have lost to Flynn, but it is at least a possibility that allowed the cushion of a cautious professional manager that Marciano enjoyed, he might have dodged that bullet and been fighting his own equivalent of a Keene Simmons 8-8-1 or Harold Mitchell 4-14-3.
NB Dempsey was a 21 years old nobody who was finding it difficult to work regular as a spar mate when he fought Flynn.Nobody knew him and nobody wanted to.

 

Ah, even you know Dempsey would smoke a 37 year old Flynn given the comforts of modern matchmaking.

I don't think the Marciano point is the fairest equivalent, since Marciano got his start later in life.
But he certainly enjoyed a more refined matchmaking path than Dempsey, and other guys in Dempseys era, but also his own era.

I try to be careful to not let a fact like that distract from some of the more important elements to the equation.

 

His matchmaker was also his manager!
I'm not in the business of trying to convert minds, especially those that have proven themselves to be closed .I'm just presenting the facts,what difference a change of circumstances would have made to the eventual results is open to personal interpretation.
Ed Morbius has constantly harped on the fact that a 21 years old Dempsey was ko'd by a very experienced fighter with 64 wins,and tons of world class experience,and this therefore means Marciano who was never ko'd had a better chin.
I merely pointed out that at the same stage of his career Marciano was fighting 8-8-1 Keene Simmons and was in danger of being stopped in that fight too!
What's unfair about highlighting that fact?

 

It just occurred to me to see how Marciano would have stacked up if he LOST the two close decisions. So much obsession is put on the undefeated record that hardly anyone looks at anything else. I will print total fights, record, and my calculators winning percentage for the fighter. I generally used box rec for the records, but if the old Ring Record Book gave the old champion a better percentage, as with Jeff and Louis, I used that.

Gene Tunney--85 (79-1-4 with 1 nc) 92.5%
Jack Dempsey--75 (58-6-11) 77.3%
Jim Jeffries--23 (20-1-2) 86.9%
Jack Johnson--93 (71-11-11) 76.3%
Wlad Klitschko--69 (64-5) 92.7%
Vitali Klitschko--47 (45-2) 95.7%
Lennox Lewis--44 (41-2-1) 93.2%
Larry Holmes--75 (69-6) 92%
George Foreman--81 (76-5) 93.8%
Evander Holyfield--56 (44-10-2) 78.6%
Mike Tyson--56 (50-6) 84.3%
Muhammad Ali--61 (56-5) 91.8%
Joe Louis--71 (68-3) 95.7%
Max Schmeling--70 (56-10-4) 80%
Rocky Marciano--49 (47-2) 95.9%

Wlad Klitschko-not counting last two losses--67 (64-3) 95.5%
Jim Jeffries--not counting comeback fight--22 (22-0-2) 90.9%
Joe Louis--not counting comeback--61 (60-1) 98.4%

How many of these men had wins over every opponent they fought? Only Marciano and Lewis.
Who of these men had the highest KO percentage? Marciano
Who of these men never suffered a knockout defeat? Only Marciano and Tunney.

In fairness, Joe Louis and Larry Holmes and Ali would join Marciano and Lewis in winning over every opponent except for their old age defeats. And Holmes and Ali and Jeffries would also join in never being stopped if their old fights are discounted.

My take is that Marciano would stack up very well even if the two close decisions had gone against him. Of all these men, he would still be the only one who had never lost decisively, while running up the highest winning and KO percentages. And he would be the only one who KO'd every ranked or ever ranked fighter he fought.

 

"surviving on $0.75 a day."

That comes out of about $273 a year. The average mill worker in the teens in the US got $260 a year for a 60 hour week. That might be why Dempsey went into boxing. Cowboys made less than $1 a day for 18 hours in the saddle days.

To get any kind of perspective, it is necessary to adjust the prices.

I found three lists of food prices from 1913, 1915, and 1917, taken from grocery ads

Cheese--1 lb--$0.22
Sirloin steak--1 lb--$0.24
Round steak--1 lb--$0.20
Ham--1 lb--$0.25
Bread--l lb loaf--$0.07
Potatoes--30 lb sack--$0.30 (potatoes were 1 cent per pound)
Chuck roast--1 lb--$0.15
Peanut Butter--l lb--$0.25
Sugar--1 lb--$0.06%

I recall an interview with an old movie actor who related that he lived comfortably in New York City in the late 1920's on $7 a week. Seems impossible, but shows the inflation.

Now if I can get in and out of the grocery store for $100 I am doing well, especially if I thought of buying ham and sirloin steaks and the like.

 

My take is Marciano would stack up very well with the heavyweights near his size ie Dempsey and Langford I am less sure he would be successful against the bigger class heavies from Liston onwards.