Jack Dempsey vs rocky Marciano

Well, let's restrict Dempsey to 1918 and after, disregarding totally his early career.

He had 30 fights after January 1, 1918, according to box rec

and went 26-3-1 with 23 KO's.

His early career does drag Dempsey's career totals down and it is reasonable to consider that unfair. But Dempsey didn't actually do as well as Marciano in his prime years either.

 

Dempsey was getting .75cents a day when he was working in between he got nothing.I think it is well documented that he had it pretty rough when he was starting out,he was fighting in saloons for lunch money when still a teenager.I doubt he "rode the rods" because he preferred the open air to a seat inside!

 

What's unfair about highlighting that fact?

Nothing.

But Dempsey wasn't quite as inexperienced as you are implying. He had fought John Lester Johnson in NYC and several other local names like Terry Keller. Boxrec reports the Keller fight drew a crowd of 2000 in Ogden in 1916.

Certainly a difference in circumstances might change things, but who knows how. For all we know, if Dempsey started his career at 24 he might never have even become champion. Starting late is not an advantage.

"Keene Simmons"

And have you gone through all of Dempsey's fights to see how often he was "in danger" in fights he later won? That would only prove recuperative powers.

Also, in fairness, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Dempsey also fought some pushovers after he became a leading contender. His opposition wasn't brutally tough all the time either. In neither case are we talking about an Ali or Louis or Johnson level of quality opponents.

 

I am certain he had it tough at certain points. But the issue is was he starving by the time of the Flynn fight. That fight drew a couple thousand fans and a gate of $5000. John Reisler was not around in Salt Lake City. I have to see some real evidence, and I haven't, that Dempsey was not eating at that point in his life.

Also, why would the situation be so much better for the men he was fighting? Why was Johnny Sudenberg, for example, well-fed, well-housed, and well-trained, if Dempsey wasn't? Where did Sudenberg get money?

 

I agree.

 

Dempsey was getting .75cents a day when he was working in between he got nothing.I think it is well documented that he had it pretty rough when he was starting out,he was fighting in saloons for lunch money when still a teenager.I doubt he "rode the rods" because he preferred the open air to a seat inside!

I have merely repeated what Dempsey wrote in his autobiography if you want to call Dempsey a liar that is up to you.
I made a point of saying Dempsey and Reisler were estranged and that Reisler had "put the black spot " on Jack.

I compared Dempsey's fight with Flynn which you were the first to mention,[several times,] with Marciano's equivalent which was against Keene Simmons and it's a fact that the referee was thinking seriously of stopping that fight because of Marciano having a really bad cut. Marciano's fights are more fully documented that Dempsey's ,but if you can find any early ones of Jack that show he was lucky not to be stopped then by all means produce them!
The fact that both Dempsey and some of his contemporaries may have been in the same boat viza viz lack of management,diet, and training doesn't make it any less true. Sudenberg's 2 fights with Dempsey aren't relevant to this discussion.

 

"Walcott"

Perry pointed out that Walcott hurt Marciano in the 11th and 12th rounds. Marciano KO'd him in the 13th. As for the first, Marciano obviously recovered quickly and was holding his own by the end of the round. I can't see spinning this as he had trouble recovering.

"Maxine Cates"

I don't know about bringing this up. This might get down to a question of who supported whom, but has nothing to do for me with judging Dempsey as a fighter.

"Clearly at the time Dempsey wasn't the money maker you believe him to be."

His purse, according to box rec, was $100 for the John Lester Johnson fight. Not a great deal, perhaps, but certainly a decent amount in those days. The question I guess would be how much he could keep after his bloodsucking manager got done with him. The Keller fight at Ogden, again according to boxrec, drew 2000 fans, and the Flynn fight a $5000 gate. This might not be fat city, but it should have been enough for Dempsey to be able to keep himself in room and board.

I don't want to disillusion you, but autobiographies are not generally known for accuracy. For example, in a case in which we have factual information to judge, the Flynn fight, Dempsey has the fight stopped with his brother throwing in the towel and with Dempsey not taking the count. All the ringside newspaper reports say he went down and was counted out in 20 seconds.

 

I don't know why the first Roland LaStarza fight isn't the equivalent as Marciano was fighting a world rated opponent.

"Sudenberg's 2 fights with Dempsey aren't relevant to this discussion."

Yeah, too early in his career. As is the Flynn fight. And there was that layoff before the Gibbons fight. And we can't consider the Tunney fights because Dempsey had laid off three years and wasn't the old Dempsey, etc.

More of less his whole career is off limits because of one excuse or another.

But as wise old Vince Lombardi put it, "Excuses are for losers."

 

Marciano was put down in the first. Not the 11th or 12th. However "hurt" he was in the 11th or 12th doesn't trump the fact that he was full on knocked down and hurt in the first.

Dempsey never pimped his wife. That is an outright lie and pretty disrespectful to say.

Like I said, Dempsey by his own account was broke. Do you honestly think that he would ride the rods if he didn't have to? He wasn't that cheap...

It doesn't matter how much Dempsey made from his purses because his wife took it all. The Kellar fight you are referencing happened almost a full year prior to the Flynn bout.

Everything else still stands. You only addressed two point.

 

Who mentioned Lastarza?
Can you provide your source for Dempsey admitting to pimping his wife?

If you can't I think a retraction is in order.

I've read Dempsey's trial transcript and he was exonerated of all charges,any new evidence you can share with us will be greatly appreciated.
Now you are reverting to your sarky self. No one has mentioned the Tunney fights or the Gibbons fight ,don't spit your dummy out, because you're running out of bullets.

 

"Dempsey never pimped his wife."

Okay. I apologize--my memory failed me. Roger Kahn quotes Jack Kearns as saying that Dempsey "got her customers." I don't consider Kahn that reliable an historian and I don't consider Kearns that reliable a source, so the issue is moot. I know of no source where Dempsey himself admitted to pimping his wife.

I will step aside here to confess that for me this is just not a very important point one way or another. I guess I'm just not that moralistic about these things.

I strive to be accurate, though, so I regret such a sloppy mistake.

"He wasn't that cheap"

How do you know. Why pay if you have the skill to ride for free?

I couldn't find a railroad ricket price for NYC to Salt Lake, but I did find the price at the turn of the 20th century from NYC to San Francisco. It was $80 for first class and $40 for third-class. Dempsey would have gone third class, I assume, and Salt Lake is not quite as far. I would guess the train trip at about $30. That would be quite significant, a month's salary or more for a lot of folks, so it is quite possible that an experienced guy like Dempsey would jump freight trains as a cheap alternative.

 

"If you can't I think a retraction is in order."

I gave the retraction in the previous post, and I repeat it here. My memory confused Roger Kahn's quoting of Jack Kearns saying as much with Dempsey saying as much, and as I don't consider Kearns a reliable source, so I regret a rather thoughtless post and have edited it.

"Who mentioned LaStarza?"

I did. I pointed out several posts ago that Marciano fought LaStarza before fighting Simmons.

"No one has mentioned the Tunney fights"

Indirectly you certainly did. Your post of Thursday 4:27 AM mentioned the ages of Marciano's opponents and then

"How he would fare if he was past his prime, having had 3 years of inactivity and a Hollywood life style is problematical."

This seems to me to be a reference to the Tunney fights,

if not, so what, as the Tunney fights are part of Dempsey's career and thus fair for comment.

I am not questioning you referring to any Marciano fight and how much trouble Marciano had winning it.

I see no reason not to refer to any of the 17 fights Dempsey did not win.

 

"his wife took all his money"

She didn't even leave him enough for food?

Well, there are wives and then there are wives.

 

I don't think it was much of a "skill" to ride the rods. Hobos didn't do it so they didn't have to spend the money, they didn't because they didn't have any money at all!

He took a ride from Philly to Kansas City. Once in Kansas City he proceeded to work as a sparring partner for Carl Morris at $0.75 per day. At that time the average income was just above $10,000 per year. Had Dempsey worked 365 days per year as a sparring partner then he makes only $273.75. The average hourly rate in the US was $0.22.

Back then they didn't have airplanes or really even cars for long distance travel. Train was pretty much the only choice for long distance travel so it makes sense that the prices are so high. I found a source that says that each mile is $.0206. That's about $23.17 for a trip from Philly to Kansas City in 1917. [url]https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004568393;view=1up;seq=154[/url]

I mean, its just highly doubtful that Dempsey would ride the rods if he could avoid it. It's incredibly dangerous and there is a high chance of death on that 1,000+ mile journey.

 

Your train prices sound right and dovetail with the prices I found pretty closely. If he was only going from Kansas City to Salt Lake, that would drop the price some.

"At that time the average income was $10,000 per year."

On this one there must be some mistake. Wages in the United States by Scott Nearing, MacMillan, 1911, has the estimate of average wages as $1.50 to $2 a day, or $500 to $600 a year. Remember these are wage earners. Over half the folks lived on farms and their income was lower. I have found stats that the average farmer's income was $273 in both 1920 and 1929.

Is this possibly a confusion with taxable income? Once the income tax came in it was only applied at first to those with a considerable income.

On Dempsey and his $0.75 a day, did Morris provide food and board? That would change things a bit.

But to cut to the chase, did Dempsey in his autobiography state that he was "starving" at the time he fought Flynn? I have no doubt he was probably hungry sometimes, but as he was a celebrity in Salt Lake City, Dempsey being that short doesn't ring true to me.