Jack Dempsey .Vs. Rocky Marciano

"He's not fighting Archie Moore in this one but a real heavyweight killer at his peak."

What top heavyweight other than Dempsey himself did Tunney ever defeat to become a 'heavyweight killer'. This is a circular argument that Tunney is great because he beat Dempsey.

Coming into the Marciano fight, Archie Moore actually had a much more distinguished record against heavyweights than Tunney had coming into his fight with Dempsey.

 

How about the fact that Dempsey was inactive for three years when as you put it Tunney messed his face up?

 

While I agree with Rademacher, London, and McNeeley, I think you are being rather harsh on Roy Harris. He was not that bad of a contender. He was undefeated, and had wins over Bob Baker, Willie Pastrano, Willi Besmanoff, and Charley Norkus. I think one could make a good case that he was more deserving than Nino Valdes of a shot in 1958. Harris was riding a 23 bout winning streak, and would come back from the Patterson fight with 7 more wins. Valdes never won 23 in a row or 30 of 31. Harris lost only to Patterson, Liston, Cooper, and Cleroux in his entire career, and defeated Baker and Charley Powell, both of whom defeated Valdes. Harris was not in the class of Machen or Folley, but he stacks up pretty well against the in and out Valdes.

 

You are assuming that being a taller man would be an advantage to Dempsey in a battle of two sluggers who fought in crouches. The opposite might actually be the case. Dempsey struggled with the stubby Meehan and the shortish Gibbons. Marciano also struggled with the shortish Lowry. Both had styles designed for taller opponents.

 

Judging off surviving film, not what the "experts" said a couple of generations ago, I would dispute that Dempsey had better evasive qualities. He gets hit on film a lot more than Marciano does and is much more vulnerable to the jab, not only against Tunney but even against Brennan. Marciano also held his hands higher and was better at blocking punches.

 

I do. I think this is a valid point. Observers at the Dempsey-Meehan fights noted that Dempsey's own offense tended to sputter if he was swarmed, which is why Meehan did so unexpectedly well.

 

Valdez would have knocked out roy harris. Pure and Simple. with his size power jab he was the more formidable foe for patterson than feathefisted chin sticking out roy harris was. not to mention valdez was ranked higher than roy harris, and fighting and beating much tougher opposition. Harris beat a very badly brittled handed washed up bob baker. Valdez knockout wins over entire european group, his wins over ranked contenders mike dejohn wayne bethea, and his knock outs wins over ranked young contenders pat mcmutry and harold carter more than qualified a title shot vs patterson.

 

Tunney said in 20 rds he never got a clean shot at Dempseys chin.

 

I'm not assuming Dempsey would have an advantage because he was taller,I was responding to a post that asserted Marciano would be the bigger man,when, actually Dempsey would be 21/2 inches taller and a couple of pounds heavier,plus he would have about 8 inches in reach

 

Tunney also said Dempsey would knock out walcott, charles, marciano, mathews on the same night in less than 7 rounds total.

 

couple pounds heavier? both dempsey and marciano at there peaks weighed in around the mid-high 180s. both pushed over 190lb a couple times.

 

I don't think Valdes was rated higher in the summer of 1958, when the Patterson-Harris fight was made. It is similar to the Charles-Valdes situation of 1954. Harris was ranked #4 in the 1957 yearly rankings, Valdes #6.

I didn't say you couldn't make a case for Valdes. I said you could make a strong case for Harris. You can select fights, but Harris defeated Bob Baker, Willie Pastrano, Willi Besmanoff, Charley Norkus, Joe Bygraves, Charley Powell, and Alejandro Lavorante in his first 31 fights while losing only to Patterson. Baker had beaten Valdes twice and Powell would knock Valdes out directly before losing to Harris.

D'Amato may well have feared Valdes more as Valdes had at least a reasonable punch, but Harris' record did put him directly behind Machen and Folley and I think defending against Harris was certainly justified.

 

Its true Dempsey struggled with the 5 9 Meehan ,but lets not forget they were 4 rd fights ,nor the fact that Meehan also beat Sam Langford and Jeff Clark over 4 rds. Gibbons was the complete antithesis of Marciano in style,most people struggled with Gibbons and only one ,[Tunney],stopped him.

 

For a guy with your name Suzie ,you should know better.Marciano never weighed above189 in a title bout ,that was his heaviest ,for the Cockell fight,his lowest was 184 ,in the first Walcott fight,his average would be around187.Dempsey was up to 192 1/2 for Firpo and 192 1/2 for the second Tunney fight,so a couple of pounds advantage to Dempsey ok?

 

Okay. I misunderstood.