Jack Dempsey vs. Wladimir Klitschko

Mendoza,

please come out of the closet and admit your a big dempsey fan. we all know you would never pick marciano and frazier over wlad.

 

History is full of more shitty everything than good or great ones.
The reason you get to know them better in the shw case , is because this is the only place where someone can possess such a huge size advantage over his rivals .
And to some extent it is an equalizer against their lack of talent.

 

I don't know why this reality is so hard to absorb.

It's the only division that has uniformly expanded its range over the history of the sport. While rest of the original 8 divisions have been increasingly subdivided, the heavyweights have grown in size, while getting only 5 pounds increased on the bottom end of the division.

 

Actually the bottom end increased from 175 to 200.
(After the wide Cruiserweight division was cut from the hw)
And because of the improving weight cutting and dieting techniques , the bottom end actually rose even higher.
And my argument in my previous post would have remained in tact even more had all of this never happened.

 

Dempsey TKO2.
He'll quickly rush to get inside with his highly elusive head movement, slipping and countering the jab that Klit so heavily relies on, mess up Wlad's rhythm and chop him down early.

 

Exactly my opinion. Dempsey and Tyson are complete cryptonite for Wlad.

No, Wlad´s jab is not as fast as Tunney´s. It´s fast for a man of his size but that´s it. And the Dempsey of the Tunney fight is clearly not the one who would be in there with Wlad. Dempsey´s chin is better than Wlad´s. Dempsey was starched once with rumours that this fight was a fix. Wlad was stopped three times. Funny, you mention Dempsey´s opposition. Wlad´s is the epitome of mediocrity.

 

Wlads jab is far rangier than Tunneys and the speed difference isnt too big, bottom line is Dempsey never proved he could get past a world class jab. What is there to say Dempsey is significantly past prime, he was only 31 and simply hadnt fought the level of competition to prove he'd ever beat the likes of Tunney. When a fighter is past prime, they usually show some indication of a threat, Dempsey was thoroughly schooled

Dempseys chin certainly hasnt been proven as better than Wlads, how many punchers has he fought on par with Sanders/Brewster? He hasnt. He was sparked by the smaller lesser Flyn and didnt fight anything like as big punchers. I'm aware of the 'Fly fight was a fix' talk but this came years later, no one at the time thought it was a fix including ring reports. And Dempsey was down for 20seconds

 

Was Dempsey dropping Tunney for 14 seconds not an indication that he was a threat?

 

He won 30seconds of the thread when Tunney made a mistake, a good KD, but clearly limited skills.

And for anyone who doesnt know the rules, its the refs count of 10, not seconds on a stop watch, if the ref counted his count twice as fast Tunney would be up, he was fully in control

 

So, now you are from Wlad´s jab is faster too the speed difference isn´t too big. Yes it is. About as big as the difference between Jones and Tunney. Dempsey knocked Tunney down for 14 second but yeah, he didn´t show he was a thread.

Wlad failed the test against Sanders and Brewster. Dempsey passed his when he beat Firpo who punched about as hard as anybody Wlad fought. Dempsey was knocked out of the ring but then gave him a beating and stopped him. See the difference?
I don´t know if the Flynn fight was a fix or not. It´s suspicious and as long as there is no clear evidence in either direction I won´t recognize this one as any indication for anything.

 

Burt, you and I hardly ever disagree, but this time we do. Wladimir is far too big and skilled for Dempsey. I voted Klitschko by decision and I was probably being kind to Dempsey. The big men of yesteryear were not on the skill level of a Lennox Lewis or Wladimir or Vitali Klitschko. Dempsey was great, but no way in my mind does he beat Wladimir Klitschko.

 

I wouldn't call Vitali or Willard (or Vlad for that matter) pitiful and unskilled (and especially not to their faces) they all won the heavyweight championship of the world - all three were good fighters and anybody of that size 6'6"plus and 240 pounds plus even with rudementary ability is going to be a difficult task physically to come up against (especially someone with Willard's inhuman ability to absord endless punishment) - the difference is Dempsey is one of the TRUE TRUE GREATS - he was really a natural instinctive fighter who knew how to survive unscathed, how to be a bit cute, how and when to be vicious, how not to try to be anything he wasn't, how to be merciless without a seconds thought, how to take every advantage that he could get away with (without the ref pulling him up) - neither of the Klits (or Willard or Sanders) really have that in their make up - they just don't have it - thats why a real fighter will always beat these guys - Lennox had it and thats why even super flabby and greying he could still brutalise the best Vitali we've so far seen. Like you say when Vit throws a southpaw jab from the ortodox stance he looks ridiculous because doing something doesn't come naturally to him because he's not really a natural instinctive fighter (he's really programmed) where if a Dempsey did that in the throws of a fight it wouldn't look out of place - he would just be being Dempsey.

 

Powerpuncher I really don't know where to start with you!!!????? Wlad did not have an equally fast jab as Tunney at all??? That is almost the most ridiculousb thing I have ever heard on these boards (and thats taking the biscuit) - and saying Dempsey was chinny atsch- you clearly have know real grasp on reality whatsoever - the man was renowned in his day amongst the entire fight fraternity for having an Iron chin!! Come on man get real - you're just making yourself sound a bit silly :-(- fair enough if you don't like the man then just say it - but coming out with things like that is akin to saying Ali had no footwork and no speed!! - and Dempsey's competition was very weak and he avoided the best of his era!!?? Err hello?? Gunboat Smith?, Billy Miske?, Bill Brennan?, Fred Fulton?, Carl Morris?, Jess Willard?, Georges Carpentier?, Tom Gibbons?, Gene Tunney?, Jack Sharkey? nono couldn't even be bothered to respond to any of your other laughable posts

 

I think some struggle to understand that the division is unique because of the increase in size difference contained within it and that this reality does play into the relative effectiveness of fighters of seemingly unequal skillsets.

It's vastly more difficult for one middleweight to fight "big" against another, though we have seen it on occasion (Monzon v. Napoles, McClellan-Jackson...). It's much easier and much more a factor when one fighter is 30 pounds heavier and 4 inches taller, or in the case presented here 50 pounds heavier and 5 inches taller.