Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

I believe Tunney could have gotten to his feet about as fast as Ali did against Frazier, or Holmes did against Shavers. Dempsey knew it too. He had a genuine killer instinct, and knew when his victim could beat the count. He walked away from the final knockdown of Firpo, and the knockdown of Sharkey, because he knew they couldn't get up before ten. I think he was really trying to pull a fast one on Dave Barry. It's my supposition that the Long Count was much ado about nothing, and whether Dempsey had immediately gone to a neutral corner, or there had been no neutral corner rule in place, events would have otherwise unfolded as they actually did.

My contention is that peak Demspey would have stunned Tunney like that repeatedly, and eventually forced a stoppage, a position you've reasonably raised questions about.

Having stated what I have on the issue, it also needs to be expressed that Tunney was a late bloomer who was actually still an improving boxer at the time of his retirement, so while we saw a glimpse of how good Dempsey could be at his peak, we don't know how much better Tunney would have gotten before any noticable decline. (I've speculated that Louis would have been the challenger to ultimately dethrone Gene.)

 

I think people here are talking about a certain style of head movement.

I'm more inclined to prefer the minimalist / economic approach to head movement, demonstrated by the likes of Joe Louis and Sonny Liston in their primes.

Then there's Jack Johnson, whose head movement was just one subtle aspect of a defensive style, and probably too subtle for me !

 

It's all about the anticipation for me and that's why I find Dempsey hard to rate h2h.

Based on people at the time they saw him as a brilliantly quick reflexive fighter who made people miss and made them pay whilst on the front foot.

Write ups suggest his defence to be up there with the best in boxing as a whole, never mind just the division.

But on footage it appears he is tagged an awful lot. Even if we accept the Firpo kd as a careless mistake (Lewis v McCall for example) there is still fights that appear to show him walking into clean punches.

Now can it really be so that he's actually slipping these shots but the jerk frames are selling him short?

If his defence really is that brilliant I'd probably to have reevaluate my ranking of him.

Because right now I see him as brawler but one with less stamina and less endurance to Rocky. So I see Rocky wearing him down, similarly Holyfield wins down the stretch. I see him as somewhat reckless and therefore could easily imagine him being caught by Langford. I see him as willing to engage with anyone so I do see him wiping out Patterson and eventually walking down Charles and prime Tunney. If Jones can dance for 15-20 Jack never gets close.

Note the weights of the fights I'm thinking about because I'm trying to build a p4p rating of him. Right now I see Marciano as the best sub 190 in history but there are plenty there who confidently give Dempsey those plaudits. For me to reciprocate I would have to be convinced of his defensive nuances being the real deal.

 

Frazier always got hit with follow up left hooks. He would slip and duck the one two and then get nailed with the hook as his head bobbed up. Ali used this to great effect in Manilla. Dempsey definitely had the greater defense/better head movement. However Foreman in his prime was a human forse of nature. The night he faced Ali in 74 not many past hwt champions would have survived against him for very long.

 

Ali is on record as stating he found Frazier easy to hit.
Tunney is on record as stating he found it difficult to nail Dempsey's jaw with right hands.

 

Ali said a lot of things. Watch fight one. Ali missed a huge percent of his punches. Frazier was predictable however and would get hit flush eventually.

 

This nice little video isn't about head movement per se, but has some little snippets of Louis slipping and ducking and weaving :

[yt]R78hdxpRfws[/yt]

 

You got me there.

To be still, is to NOT move.

 

Great post I'd agree with this

 

Regarding round 7 of his bout with Tunney I have watched the knockdown countless times. If Jack had gone to his corner immediately it looks as if Gene would have gotten up at the count of eight. The question then is would Tunney without tht extra 6.5 second rest would have had the mobility to move away from the next Dempsey hook. Tunney himself did not know the answer to this question.

 

Like the man said sometimes it's the moves you don't make.