Jack Dempsey's Ranking

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, May 7, 2016.



  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Look the reporter in 1914 is of the opinion that Wills "could have gotten up" although the story says that his corner men carried him to his stool. Other sources indicate Langford hit Wills with a "torrent" of punches before he went down. This reporter might just have been wrong.

    My bottom line is that Wills in fact would fight Langford about a dozen more times, winning the majority.

    Dempsey admitted he never wanted to or would fight Langford.

    It is kind of bizarre to use Langford against Wills to support Dempsey in this circumstance.
     
  3. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Except the man who fought Wills 18 times stated he felt Dempsey would win adding..... "Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen". A fighter with average skills does not get this level of praise. Langford was an amazing ring tactician.
     
  4. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That was not my intention at all, if you read the post you will find no mention of Dempsey in conjunction with that quote.
     
  5. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    dempsey1234

    "My point was not to show anything about Dempsey but to illustrate that maybe Wills' intestinal fortitude was lacking."

    And for me you dismally failed. Wills got into the ring with Langford time and time again. Dempsey is the one who wouldn't fight him.

    "you will find no mention of Dempsey in conjunction with that quote."

    Why is Wills' supposed lack of intestinal fortitude raised at all in a thread dealing with Dempsey? Aren't you being a bit disingenuous.

    I'm sorry, but for me a guy who someone safely watching from the outside thinks shows fear when in the lion cage is still showing more intestinal fortitude than the guy who never got into the cage.

    And Langford was by reputation a terrific puncher, so his knocking out Wills does not have to be explained.

    And as I said, having your eyes open doesn't prove you know what is going on around you.

    By the way, these putdowns you quote? Are they from the white press?

    *Actually, Perry makes the better argument that Langford is on record saying Dempsey would beat Wills.
     
  6. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would like to say that while I said that I didn't think Dempsey looked a world beater on film, neither do most of the others a lot of the time.

    Louis certainly didn't look that good against Schmeling and Walcott in their first fights, nor until the last round against Conn.

    Marciano looked sloppy plenty of times, even if he always endured.

    Ali looked bad against Doug Jones, and so-so in all three fights against Norton.

    And so on and so on.

    Fact is, every fighter looks beatable in many of his fights, at least to me.
     
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    No, I think this does a disservice to Sam Langford and to the boxing community at the time.
    The only people who would care about Langford's opinion on other fighters would be boxing fans, most of whom revered Sam Langford. Even if they were white and racist.
    I don't think any great black fighter was ever lynched or threatened with lynching for 'underrating' a white fighter, by fans of white fighters.
    This seems to me a complete misunderstanding of how people thought at the time.

    Having said that, generally some former fighters do often go out of there way to say nice things about current fighters in certain company (not out of fear but out of diplomatic politeness), and you often find them contradicting themselves.

    Generally I think people are ignoring a lot of the obvious surrounding the Dempsey/Wills stuff, either out of naivete (willful or otherwise) or because they are wrapped up in the argument and cannot let go.

    I think it is fairly obvious now that beyond a certain point in time the Dempsey/Wills rivalry was contrived, exploited and prolonged 'by all sides' for massive financial and political gain, as these things usually are.
    When people do the research and see who Dempsey and Wills were connected with, and who those people were connected with, and so on ..... and still fail to connect the dots and draw the logical conclusions, something's amiss.

    The business of professional boxing is highly cynical, so we'd be wise to view it through our most cynical eyes. :good
     
  8. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

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  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Wills did not exhibit the when the going gets tough all that often he turned it in against Jim Johnson when he damaged his hans.
    Lamotta fought with a broken hand so did Braddock,Johnson fought with a broken arm.Ali with a broken jaw as did Scott Quigg a couple of months ago and Kevin Finnegan did too.Danny Williams fought with a dislocated arm.

    I'm not saying Wills was a coward that would be silly but I'm suggesting he wasn't quite as ready to struggle through adversity as some other fighters have been.

    He fouled out against Sharkey to save himself from further punishment.Wills was 38 years old no shame there, but Ali kept trying against Holmes.
    I believe there was some speculation he could have gotten up against Paulino too,again he was an old man for the ring by then, but throughout his career, he was usually the bigger guy punishing the littler fellow.:think
     
  10. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    unforgiven

    "A disservice to Sam Langford"

    Your criticisms here are fair. I perhaps took my case way too far.

    But it is valid to point out this is only an opinion from 1922 and has nothing to do with fighters from Louis on.

    And generally I distrust quotes as a historical tool as they are often simply inaccurate or twisted to make it appear the guy speaking was saying something he really wasn't trying to say.

    Before anyone mentions it, it is obvious here that Langford is considering Dempsey the best heavyweight he has seen and as better than Wills.

    "at a certain point the Dempsey/Wills rivalry was contrived, exploited, and prolonged on all sides for massive financial and political gain"

    If you are trying to argue that Wills didn't want and wasn't seeking a match with Dempsey, I completely disagree with you.
     
  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    No, I'm not saying that.
    I'm simply saying the lofty status of Harry Wills (then and now) mirrors the status bestowed upon Jack Dempsey.
    It was the Golden Age of American Sports. Dempsey was a phenomenon of the colourful age, presented as an invincible champion.
    Wills was 'the black menace', the ever-present perennially threatening contender.
    Both of them sat on their positions for far too long. Both of them cashed in and cherry-picked their way around. The big money men and managers behind them cashed in even more so from this situation. Even politicians exploited the rivalry.

    Rightfully, it reflects worse on Dempsey, because every deserving contender should get a shot at being champion.
    But people need to examine the whole picture beyond that.
     
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When did Wills cherry-pick?

    He agreed to fight anyone Rickard chose in 1924 and Rickard chose Firpo.

    Weinert was actually rated only behind Wills himself and Gibbons when Wills fought him in 1925 in a promotion which was not by Tex Rickard.

    There is no doubt that Wills by late 1925 was only interested in getting a shot at Dempsey, not in fighting a series of eliminations to put him off until Wills simply got too old to fight.
     
  13. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wills turned down bouts with Gibbons and Tunney. He was content as top contender as he made a good living without being champion. I believe he was very wary of losing his status as he probably understood he was not getting a title shot. So in other words protect and he greatly L for what you have.
     
  14. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Protect and be great-full"
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    During Dempsey's title reign Wills beat a past prime ,half blind Langford,Firpo whom Dempsey had already ko'd Fulton whom Dempsey had already ko'd ,a washed up Jeff Clark,light heavyweight Kid Norfolk and Bartley Madden.
    Weinert had previously been beaten by Firpo,Tunney,Miske,Fulton,Smith,Levinsky and Greb.
    Five of that seven were ko victims of Dempsey
    I don't see where Wills was the number one contender for all the years others claim for him?

    I don't dispute he deserved and wanted a title shot but, was he more deserving than say Greb?