jack demspey vs george foreman

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by killuminix, Oct 9, 2011.


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  1. RockysSplitNose

    RockysSplitNose Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What were you saying about Dempsey being normally buiilt and slender??
    :lol:

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    RockysSplitNose, Oct 12, 2011
    RockysSplitNose, Oct 12, 2011
    #46
  2. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    the black one wins
     
    manbearpig, Oct 12, 2011
    manbearpig, Oct 12, 2011
    #47
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There is nothing funny or controversial about what I have said. Even in the muscle pose photographs you have posted, Dempsey does not look "very large and developed", not even for a fighter. It is a fantasy.

    And yes, in photographs Dempsey looks slender at times (in fact I posted one). This is not true of either Harold Johnson or Eddie (who I posted pictures of). It's really very simple and completely undeniable. In the action (as opposed to muscle poses pics) YOU have posted, he looks lithe rather than "very large."
     
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    #48
  4. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What the hell are you trying to prove Mc ? Showing snapshots of two muscular fighters,and then a picture of Jack Dempsey shows SQUAT the
    respective strenghts of they or Dempsey. Body builders,are not champion weightlifters because they photograph well. Strength of a fighter has nothing to do with the muscles of a Harold Johnson at all. Look at a Lew Jenkins, A Bob Foster, who were like a rail, but had explosive power.
    Jack Dempsey was as I have posted exceptionally strong for his deceptive weight.as he had the lower legs and waist of a ballet dancer,with an upper frame of a 210 pound athlete. His lean weight and natural strength ,along with the explosive handspeed of a middleweight gave him a great advantage over the larger,heavier,and SLOWER heavyweights. His
    movements reminds me of a later Roberto Duran,catlike and vicious. Nat Fleischer described Dempsey as "incredibly strong" in a book I have,
    and with his 190 pounds or so speed, made him a tough hombre for any heavyweight that ever lived. The truth be said...Cheers.
     
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    #49
  5. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    O,who in tarnation ever said Jack Dempsey was HUGE. Jess Willard was huge, Primo Carnera was huge. Dempsey ,as well as Marciano, were STRONG,as well as Joe Louis,all under 200 lbs.
    Dempsey and Joe Louis,both under or abouts 200 pounds had the speed of hands, and power of any bigger man,without lugging extra weight around.
     
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    What you claimed was that Dempsey was VERY LARGE AND DEVELOPED.

    These are physical charectaristics

    What I am trying to prove by posting these photographs is that what you said isn't true.

    Very good. What is your more scientific approach to proving that Dempsey was very large and developed? What does this mean if it does not mean "large" and "developed"?

    What is your scientific reasoning in labelling Dempsey "as strong as a 210lb fighter"? If I shouldn't be looking at pictures, what footage should I be looking at to back this notion?

    No he did not!

    THIS is the body of a 210lb athlete:

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    This:

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    This:

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    NOT THIS:

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    You MUST be able to see the difference?

    Dempsey looks like exactly what he is, a beautifully proportioned 190lb killing machine. Physically he has MUCH more in common with Joe Louis.

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    And that is surely plain to see?! He is not some ill-proportioned ballet dancer with Evander Holyfield's body sticking out of it, that is just nonsense.
     
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    #51
  7. DaveK

    DaveK Vicious & Malicious Full Member

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    The more I've recently watched and thought about Foreman, the less convinced I am. I'm guilty of overrating him. I think he's overrated...

    I believe Dempsey had good, but not great, power. He had the speed to get there, and that's what really counts- getting there.

    Dempsey would get there. He'd get there more often than George would. To me, I'd give Dempsey the slight edge based on his inside ability (he'd be comfortable inside Foreman's arc of danger), and he had the agility to hit and move out before the big artillery comes back.

    That being said, Foreman could cut the ring off, and could chase a guy with accurate punches on occasion. Dempsey was knocked down more times than any other HW champ bar Louis and Patterson (and perhaps Norton, but noone's comparing Dempsey's chin to Norton's here). Foreman could time him and hurt him. There's no doubt about that.

    Overall, and for today, I'll take Dempsey by KO around the 8th. Foreman gets hit too much and spends too much energy trying to pin Dempsey down.
     
    DaveK, Oct 12, 2011
    DaveK, Oct 12, 2011
    #52
  8. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Dempsey clearly had great power. You simply cannot hold the heavyweight 1RKO record and not be the possessor of explosive power.

    As for the body debate going up top, i have no idea what is going on there. Are we equating muscle tonus with development now? Are we directly equating functional strength with size of muscles(a common mistake)? Why is this argument even happening?
     
    Swarmer, Oct 12, 2011
    Swarmer, Oct 12, 2011
    #53
  9. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Please don't be disengingenuous Mc, I said Dempsey had large deltoids
    for a man his size..You have me at a disadvantage as you can trot photos on your post to bolster your dislike of Dempsey,whilst I cannot. You show a photo of a Joe Louis unflattering to his true great and powerful body. You pick photos of your favorites showing their muscularity,whilst shoiwing a Dempsey in mid battle and a front faced Joe Louis ,both not looking imposing.
    Tell you what Mc, Put Jack Dempsey in a small room or telephone booth
    with any of the "muscular" fighters of your photos, and we'll see who survives. ? Picture that you post mean nadir to the boxing strengths of a fighter in the ring. And yes Jack Dempsey had inoordinate strength for his weight of 190 pounds. Strength and toughness comes from inside, not
    outward bodybuilder's muscles...Cheers.
     
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, you said:


    It's not "unflattering", it is absolutely not an unflattering picture. It shows that Louis was fit, svelte and carrying absolutely no fat. I don't understand your definition of a "great body" as being relevant at all...I don't understand why you are trying to insist that Dempsey had a "210lb upper body" and acting like i'm running him down when I point out that it's otherwise...it's not even criticism!!

    NONE of the fighters i've shown pictures of are "my favourites." None of them. This is where you are mistaken, you think Haye is bolstered because he has a "good body" in comparison to Dempsey!? Dempsey would ****ing kill Haye in one round, the body makes no difference but it IS "the body of a 210lb athlete." Dempsey's is NOT. I don't understand this claim or your insistence upon it.

    The pictures I post can't change the reality any more than your words can.

    Agree, Dempsey would beat every man pictured out of sight with the exception of Holyfield which is debatable...what i'm objecting to is the latest fantasist's claims regarding Dempsey, this time he's a ballet dancer with David Haye's upper body, and no amount of evidence to the contrary can change that.

    ...yes, I know that.

    Why? Was he stronger than the 210 Tyson? The 210 Liston? The 210 Foreman? The 210 Ali? What EVIDENCE exists that he was as physically as strong as any of these men?

    Toughness does, strength does not. Nor is strength about "bodybuilder's muscles", granted.
     
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    #55
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I don't think Dempsey was the strongest 185lber ever. In fact I think he is 3rd. Behind Rocky Marciano and Sam Langford.
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 12, 2011
    SuzieQ49, Oct 12, 2011
    #56
  12. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Swarmer, It was not i who posted photos of "muscular' fighters so as to compare Dempsey to...It was as you stated,"why is this argument even happening"? Darned if I know...
     
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    burt bienstock, Oct 12, 2011
    #57
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, you are the one who made claims about Dempsey's physicality that are not true.
     
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    #58
  14. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Strange pick of Ali as a muscular/developed type, i never saw him as such to be honest. Not very ripped, not bulky either. He's always had a look more similar to Dempsey, Louis, or really a heavyweight sugar ray. All fast twitch.
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    Swarmer, Oct 12, 2011
    Swarmer, Oct 12, 2011
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    ...this thread is starting to weird me out.

    I did not post Ali as a "musclar type". I posted him as a "210lb" type, (which is not even a type).

    The point is not "Ali had huge muscles" the point is that Ali's body is not something that you are going to see peeping out of Dempsey's tiny waist. Dempsey does not have this "210lb athlete's upper body."

    Dempsey does not have that. Ali is an example of what Dempsey does not have. Interestingly, Ali is bigger through the legs than his own type tends to be, whilst Dempsey's upper body (though completely in keeping with a boxer's build - Louis's say) has skinnier legs.
     
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 12, 2011
    #60
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