Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Aug 4, 2022.
I wonder how Frazier would be remembered if Ali had a serviceable uppercut and an inside game.
It’s plausible. Jack Johnson was an ATG and heavyweight champion during a time when you had to be a very tough and hardened man to achieve such.
The fact that Johnson used the clutch far more than the romantic descriptions of his “plucking punches” out of the air tend to suggest - actually builds into his favour.
Many reason that, back then, it was easier to block, slip, defend against shots that tended to be launched as single and separate punches. They conclude therefore that Johnson wouldn’t be so successful against fast, multiple punches thrown in combination.
That maybe true and then again, it may not. Johnson could only display his defensive skills to the extent they were pushed to - and at least as it was, he made it look easy.
At any rate, while his reflexes might be harder pressed vs a busy, modern offense - Johnson’s clutch tactics, if his strength holds up as rated, would remain transcendent - subject to pronounced clutching being allowed by the ref.
This is a great photo that exemplifies the strong build and implied strength of Johnson. Interestingly, I’m pretty sure this photo was taken in Australia in 1908 - at the time of the Burns fight - so Johnson weighed about 194 lbs - yet to reach his prime bulk of 208 lb, a whole 1 stone heavier.
Prior and up to winning the title, it has to be remembered that Johnson was somewhat undernourished.
A lot of people don’t realise or forget that as at the time he lost to Choynski, Johnson didn’t hold much weight advantage (he was an estimated 170 lb-175 lb). And whatever weight advantage he did hold was likely negated and exceeded by how underweight he was.
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Another cool pic of Johnson testing his strength against horses, something he apparently did often among some other strongman feats:-
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Love these links straight to source. Very much appreciated.
Very incisive and thought provoking analysis of Johnson, his style and somewhat his times, and agreed the snap of him in diving pose was impressive, to say the least, as to the assertion that he could beat Frazier, and maybe he could, as many other HWs could beat their forbearers, who really knows ? its subjective and unprovable of course.
I have just come upstairs after watching a docu on the Ali/Frazier 3rd fight ( on YT nacth ) and whilst some parts were slo/mo most was in real time, and yes Ali hit Frazier with an abundance of shots, slashing left handers ( not hooks ) hard hurtful, full bloodied right handers, and yes the occasional uppercut, but it was the punches that Joe was hitting Ali with ( particularly to the body ) that has left me with a lasting impression, one such left hook visibly sent Ali back, and into a jack knife pose, the narrator pointed out the crowd were gasping in reverence at the thudding noise Joe's body punches were making .
The respective weights of the duo stood at Ali 225lb and Frazier 215lb ( in old money ) now to the thrust of my post, Frazier bullied, shoved, mauled, and pummelled a man that was heavier, bigger, taller, than himself for the best part of 10 rounds, rounds that were fought at the pace of LHWs, unremitting and violent, light years away from the footage we have of Johnsons fights, that ( in the main ) show the combatants fighting at a altogether slower pace, don't think that is libelous to say, is it ? .
So if I am asked " could Johnson beat Frazier " and I have to come up with a yes or no, then yes, he could, BUT i don't think he would, the Frazier of the Manila fight, I feel, would have been to strong, to unremitting, and altogether to much of a HW for even a 208lb Johnson, a snorting, grunting, head down , ever advancing Frazier at 215lb would in my mind , have been a nightmare for Jack, who was more accustomed to a sedate pace, a pace he liked to dictate, fighting in spurts, holding grabbing his opponents, as was his wont, I cannot for the life of me seeing that happen against Frazier, some of the posters I most admire, and like, have believed the opposite, so respect and props to you guys, and as I say any HW could beat any other HW,but I am resolute that Johnson would not have come out the victor against Frazier, ( maybe ) thanks for allowing me to use your subtext Pugguy, you are amongst the posters I revere.
stay safe guys, chat soon.
Thanks Mike and seriously likewise brother.
I agree, we have to extrapolate that much more on behalf of Johnson than Frazier imo.
It’s been pointed out that Ali successfully used the clinch to muffle Frazier in fight 2.
That is true but it wasn’t prime Frazier.
Also, Ali was that much taller and longer limbed than Lil Arthur - so maybe easier to hold due to not just strength but better physical equipment for leverage and hanging over the top of the other guy.
Frazier was unreal, his strength, volume and intensity often mooted the advantage of otherwise, technically better skilled “boxers”.
Though I highlighted the positives for Johnson - (I figured the old timer was in greater need for defensive argument, LOL), I deftly side stepped making an actual selection.
The thought experiment involving the old gun literally to the head often produces a more authentic. down in the gut pick - which may be at odds with all prior intellectual deductions, different when your life’s on the line - LOL, and with that gun I’d probably pick Joe - since greater projections (leaps of faith?) are required for Johnson - projections he could well fulfil but we don’t know for sure.
We do know however that peak Frazier was virtually an untameable beast.
So an inside hook or check hook after a slip
No he wouldn’t, end of story, the most overrated heavyweight champion of all time beating smokin joe? Not happening
After watching Frazier struggling with weights in sports competition, I'm quite positive that Johnson was significantly stronger man. Would it be enough to beat him in boxing? I don't know, but I think it would help him a lot in clinches.
If Ali had an inside game then may have gotten beat worse because he would have tried to punch with Joe more rather than just covering up or holding. Ali did have a serviceable uppercut. Frazier's hook makes it a dangerous punch to throw.
Part of the plan for the FOTC was based on Ali’s inability to throw a proper uppercut he left himself very open. If he had an inside game a good one it wouldn’t be a problem.
An intelligent and well thought out riposte, would expect nothing less.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
I don't hold Frazier in very high regard. After seeing what Foreman did to a peak Frazier- Frazier isn't that big a deal. He certainly doesn't belong in the top 10.
After seeing what Ali did to a peak Foreman, Foreman isn’t that big a deal he certainly doesn’t belong In the top 10.
Yes but Ali's uppercut was serviceable against anyone not named Joe Frazier. It was Futch's keen eye and Joe's unique skillset that allowed them to exploit Ali's technical flaw. That hook from Frazier at that time was very quick.