Jack Johnson in the 1970's...?

I saw very little difference in Spinks as an amateur champion and as a professional, so to answer you question, I think he does about the same vs a past his best Ali.

Stop trying to twist unknown facts. Jeanette turned pro at age 25 ( late in those days ) with little or no amateur career. If he got into a scrap or two growing up, it is no different than most other fighters growing up.

Fact, Johnson drew with a 0-3 fighter with limited experience!. Time to get your excuse machine going again. If you are out of ammo, the personal attacks or bigot line would be withing your modus operandi.

Ta.

 

The question you answered was not mine, it was posed by Boilermaker, a commendably objective poster.
I'm not twisting anything, I simply pointed out the possibility that Jeanette and McVey had unrecorded fights that Box rec does not list, as is the case with Jack Johnson.
If it is unknown ,it cannot be a fact ,and therefore ,logically, cannot be twisted, that is patently obvious.

Marciano was nearly 25 when he turned pro,Jess Willard was 30.
What do you think you are establishing by repeating the mantra that Johnson drew with a 0-3 fighter, even supposing it to be correct?
Does this mean that Johnson is rubbish?
If so, what does that make Langford ,who drew with Godfrey, in Godfrey's first pro fight?
You have seized upon a stick to beat Johnson with, but, unfortunately,[ for you], it has turned into a boomerang ,and come back to beat you.

Ta? In my country that is a slang word for thank you,what does it mean in "duelling banjos " ,land.:rofl

 

Ali was old and past his best when he meet a Spinks, who was an accomplished amateur.

Johnson was a title belt holder ( colored champion ) in his prime when he meet an 0-3 fighter, who had no formal amateur experience. Yet he drew.

There is a huge difference in the comparison of circumstances. Your just too much of a dolt to see it.

And while I have your fleeting attention, Godfrey DID NOT draw with Langford in his first pro fight. atsch Also, Langford was old when that draw happened so any analogy your attempting here will not work.

 

You, trying to correct grammar. OH MY LORD !

I highlighted your mistakes for you here. Two in three sentences

 

Why bother even asking some to address factual evidence? The shine of their handmade idols blinds them to any imperfections...

I like Johnson, admire him even, but see him for what he was, a fairly flawed fighter. If his opponent is listed as 0-3 or 4-4, I am told that the records were not complete and asked to assume that a dozen or more fights not included were mostly victories even though the ratio of those recorded points in another direction. With every Johnson less-than-stellar performance (which there quite a few) he was supposedly either too young and with only a handful of recorded fights (but where is the incomplete record argument here that insists he had more fights?), too old, too disinterested, in on an agreement, too hungover.... The preponderance of excuses adds to crush my suspension of disbelief.

 

McVey assigns demi god status to Johnson. To question or examine the facts in terms of the news reads, or films on his career is heresy in his eyes.

Regarding Jeanette, if he had any amateur experience, it was very, very limited. By the time Johnson fought Jeanette, Johnson had 30+ recorded fight under belt. The fact here is an 0-3 fighter stood toe to toe and drew with a allegedly great / untouchable ( not on film ) wizard.

In modern times, even an alphabet title holder would not be able to sanction a fight with an 0-3 novice. Such a fighter would not even make a worthy sparring partner.

Since this is a 1970's thread, one point to consider is the rule changes. Could Johnson adapt without excessive clinching and hitting and holding?

What is your take on that, Seamus?

 

I believe that both McVey and Jeannette had far more fights than recorded early in their career. The fact that both fought so well against Johnson lends itself to this .. do you really believe Jeannette picked up the gloves for the first time in his mid-twenties ? I definatly do not ...

AS far as Johnson's career high and low performances, you really have to look at this man as the unique individual he was .. he was very eccentric, he lived by his own set of rules and he really at times cared little about what anyone else thought ..he was a complex fighter and man .. I believe he was an exceptional talent , a highly intelligent fighter and man and quite high strung .. it's easy to pass judgement on a broad arc today but given the life he lived I cannot help but believe there is far more to his story ..

 

You and Mendacity make a good double act, but you will fall out when you start criticizing Jeffries. :good

 

I have many times stated I beleive Johnson was something of a ****, and expect he was a boring performer to watch. Jack Dempsey is my heavyweight.
You talking about worshipping fighters,thats really funny ,Mendacity, Jim Jeffries, chief ARSE LICKER.atsch

 

I would say that there is more evidence in McVea's case than Jeanettes for unrecorded fights.

 

That is true, but Mcvey was still a teenager for his first two fights with Johnson, and merely 20 for their last fight.

 

I would like to give an example, of how Jeanette ,and McVey may have had fights that went under the radar..

Box rec has Jack Johnson's career begininng in 1897 with 1 fight a win over Charley Brooks.
Johnson had 3 fights in 1896 .
Dave Pierson w.
Bob Thompson l pts 4rds.
Howard Pollar w.
Johnson fought 2 additional fights in 1897 to the 2 listed by Box rec, Jim Rocks w ko4rds.
Sam Smith wpts 10rds.

1898 Box rec has no fights for Johnson this year.
Johnson fought
Reddy Bremer w ko 3rds.
Jim Cole w pts 4rds.
Henry Smith d 15rds.

1899 Box rec has 1 fight for Johnson a ko loss to Klondike.
Johnson fought 3 additional fights.
Jim McCormick d .
Jim McCormick w dsq 7rds.
Pat Smith d 12rds.

1900 Box rec has 5 fights for Johnson ,he had 6
Missing is Josh Smith w pts 12 rds Memphis
1901 Box rec has 6 fights for Johnson ,he had13
Missing are
John Lee w pts15rds.
Charley Brooks w ko2rds.
Jim McCormick w ko2 rds.
Jim McCormick w ko 2rds .[ I thought this might be a mistake ,but they are a month apart].
Horace Miles w ko 3rds.
George Lawler w ko 10rds.
Willie McNeal w ko 15 rds.
1902 Box rec has 6 fights for Johnson

Additional ones include.
Dan Murphy w ko 10 rds Waterbury
Ed Johnson w ko 4 rds
Joe Kennedy w ko 4 rds Oakland
8 days later
Joe Kennedy w ko 4 rds San Francisco[ This likely is a mistake].
Bob White w pts 15 rds ?
Jim Scanlan w ko 7rds Pittsburgh.
3 fights with Griffin all draws. 2 over 20rds 1 over 15 rds all in L A, how many actually took place?
Peter Everett w pts 20 rds Victor Colorado.
Frank Childs d 6 rds Chicago.
All other fights were in Galveston.
My point is, if a World Champion can have fights go unrecorded it is probable contenders did too. Johnson fights after 1903 seem to be all recorded, but his early ones are not all credited, of course some may be multiple entries of the same fight ,but when different names ,dates and cities are given I tend to accept them.
I have the dates for these fights but did not think they were needed .

 

Sorry for including a well-worded line of argumentation which you nevertheless refuse to address.

And Jeffries is rubbish.

 

Don't be sorry, be silent.

Oh, and self praise is no recommendation.


Jeffries is rubbish? Your brief honey - moon with Mendacity is over then, never even got to the Motel.

 

Seamus has his own opinion. If you keep using excuses he will call you out, McVey.