Jack Johnson on Dempsey, Langford, Fitz

You also have to wonder whether Fitz and Langford were really as prolific in the art of one-punch KOs as made out to be, or whether to instances of one-punch KOs have been mythologized a bit.
If we put the hyperbole aside and check the record, several of their opponents were dropped and then got up.

 

I hear what you are saying, but it is still striking how many fights they both ended with a single well set up punch. You can usualy cross refference multiple fight reports to get a clear idea what happened.

Fitzsimmons solar plexus punch on Jim Corbett and Sam Langfords through the eye of the needle punch on Fireman Flynn are evenb recorded uon film.

 

For example, when Fitzsimmons fought the original Jack Dempsey (a welter-middle), the "nonpareil" was down 6 or 7 times over 13 rounds before he was counted out. That makes a mockery of the "one punch is all they needed"/"no one ever got up" myth.

 

You would have to do a count to really come up with something. Bear in mind how many fights they had IN TOTAL, and the quality of opposition on some of the easy KOs, they probably would come out looking exactly the same as Dempsey or Louis or Marciano etc.

 

OK, but it wouldn't be the first time that a fighter has become more destructive once they are fighting bigger/slower opponents.

Manny Pacquio is a recent example.

 

It isn't just as if they were ding it to journeymen and fringe contenders.

In fact the only cases where we can verify that it happened from contemporary sources, are by definition against elite opponents.

 

well, many of Fitzsimmons' most famous brutal KO victories (eg. Dempsey, Sharkey 2, Ruhlin) featured multiple KOs and lots of heavy hitting before getting his man out of there.
No different to Dempsey or Louis, as far as I can tell.

 

Lets look at some key fights.

The Corbett fight was clearly a one punch KO.

In the Ruhlin fight the same punch was used, and although Ruhlin survived he never realy recoverd from it, the fight seems to have been closed with a single left hook to the jaw.

Joe Choynski apears to have been hit by a left hook bellow the ear that he never recovered from. He got up, but Fitzsimmons shoved him to the canvas, and the fight was stopped. Most ringsiders seem to have thought that he would not beat the count.

In their first encounter, Sharkey seems to have been put away by a straight right followed by a left hook.

 

the Ruhlin fight was a brutal fight with more than one knockdown. To say there was one particular punch a round or a few earlier than the end that "he never really recovered from" is a far cry from talking about the one-punish-finish and all that mythical stuff Johnson was spouting.

We're talking about opponents being knocked cold out of nowhere with a single well-placed shot. So far we have Jim Corbett.

Joe Choynski got up, as you said. I'm not familiar with the reports. You're telling me he got up from at least one KD, so I can't see how that qualifies.

The first Sharkey fight, Sailor Tom was down at least twice before the end and appeared groggy or out on his feet at several points in the fight. He was knocked on his back through the ropes at one point, and got back up. according to reports.

Most of these fights seem the exact same as how Dempsey went about business. And the opposite of what Jack Johnson was trying to argue.

 

The Jim Corbett and the Peter Maher fights are the ones Jack Johnson mentions for Fitz, but that's just two fights.
He even concedes that Dempsey turned the same trick against Fred Fulton, and then goes on to scoff at Dempsey for all the guys who he couldn't keep down on the first KD.
He could do the same to Fitz.
He's spouting rubbish there.

 

In addition to the Corbett and Maher fights, I would say that the Hall rematch was clearly ended by a single well set up punch.

I would also weigh into the argument, the fact that Maher II and Corbett were Fitzsimmons two most important fights at heavyweight, as they lined him up to fight for the ttile and won it for him respectivley.

In the second Sharkey fight, it sounds like Sharkey hurt Fitzsimmons, then Fitzsimmons finished him off with a one two when he rushed in to finish the job.

The Ruhlin fight is a more complex case. Ruhlin survived Fitzsimmons solar plexus punch, but it seems like he never recovered from it.

In the Jack Dempsey fight, Fitzsimmons only landed two punches in the last round to finish off the Nonpareil, but it would have to be weighed into the argument that Dempsey was in trouble at the previous bell.

 

so a guy who was knocked down by a middleweight and lost to someone like marvin hart is trying to downplay another fighters greatness? lol

Gibbons did not make Dempsey look silly, he lost most of the rounds. The only thing he managed to do was last the full distance.

 

I'm sure we can find fights of Jack Dempsey's and Joe Louis's that were important and finished with single shots. Marciano too. Against good opposition, they are the exception rather than the rule and that applies in he case of Fitz too. This goes contrary to what Jack Johnson was claiming, and it casts serious doubt on the 'lost art' that you speculated on.

It's hard to figure that Jack Dempsey was a categorically inferior one-punch slugger even if he only did it once against a rated HW (Fulton - and I'm only accepting Johnson's assertion that Fulton was the only time for argument's sake) when Fitzsimmons seems to have only done it twice against a rated HW and that most of his famous victories were results of several punches and/or knockdowns.
If you can find more instances of good solid HW contenders being iced with a single well set up shot, then we might have to bother looking to see what Dempsey did. But at the moment there seems to be no real basis for accepting there was a difference in this ability.

This is how the NY Times described it....

"Sharkey was wild but Fitzsimmons sent him to the floor after a succession of rights and lefts on the face and body. Sharkey took the count, and got up groggy, and staggered back to the ropes. Fitzsimmons went after him and hooked his left to the jaw. Then he sent a right and left to the body, and Sharkey was unable to protect himself. Then Fitzsimmons sent a hard right to the body and hooked his left to the jaw, and as Sharkey was staggering he again hooked his left to the jaw, sending Sharkey down the second time"



That's a lot of left hooks to the jaw - on a groggy, staggering man who was unable to protect himself - who had already gotten up after being felled by a succession of rights and lefts on face and body !

It would be absolutely absurd to consider that a one-punch KO or fail to see that it's exactly the type of stoppage that Johnson was telling us is unimpressive slugging.

It's not a complex case. Ruhlin was knocked down and got up and fought on for a few rounds and took lots of hard shots.
It simply doesn't qualify.

Also that Nonpareil had been knocked down 5 or 6 times and beaten from pillar to post for the best part of 12 rounds.
This is exactly the kind of slugging that Johnson claims old-timers laughed at and that Fitz was too good to indulge it.

 

"The color line is not black brethren; it's yellow"

Best. Quote. Ever.