Jack Johnson suspect chin?

The record speaks for itself ... he fought a ton of very tough guys and went without being stopped for a hell of a long time ...

 

Johnson was stopped by Choynski when he himself was around the super middleweight limit, 10 months previously he had scaled 168lbs for a fight.He was also ,compared to Choynski ,a novice.

Let me give a comparison,as a middleweight Jimmy Ellis was knocked down by Ruben Carter , yet, once a heavyweight , he took the punches of Quarry, Bonavena, Martin , and Patterson without any problems .

Ketchel scaled just over 170lbs when he dropped Johnson in what were very dubious circumstances.
Do you think a 170lbs Langford could drop rated heavyweights?

Well he did ,many many times. So did Choynski, Fitzsimmons, Walker, and Kid McCoy,and welterweight Walcott kod heavyweights too.

 

This is not the case. Lewis can be seen on film, or read in print taking bug shots from the likes of Bruno, Morrison, Klitschko, and others without going down.


Chins are best graded when they are hit. However Johnson had a defensive play it safe type of style where he often clinched, hit and held smaller men, more in-experienced men, or in some cases much older past their prime men.


He was KO cold by Choynski. Chins seldom improve as a fighter moves up in weight. The reverse is true. Johnson was also floored and quit vs Klondike, who looks like he could hit some. But these matches one could say happened before Johnson changed tactics to be come more defensive.

Johnson claimed he was floored by a sub 160 pound Langford, but its debatable if it happened.


He was floored by a 5'9" middle weight in Ketchel, was down, rolled over and had to brace himself to get up. Then he attacked off balance ( which is what fighters hurt often are ) and fell down again himself after landing the KO blow from Ketchel.


The same year, Johnson was down and dazed to the point where his manager had to halt a 4 round ex match vs Gunboat Smith. This shows that a live body in his prime could easily hurt, floor, and put Johnson away.

The only other formidable threat Johnson faced as Champion who qualified as a puncher was Willard, and we saw what he did to him when he landed a good one. That is to say produce a ten count with Johnson being out on his back.


I see lots of indications that suggest Johnson chin was very suspect vs punchers. I am a Wald fan. Everyone here knows it. Watch how easy it is to say this. He has not been down in years, but I think that has a lot to do with how he fights, and his skills, not his ability to take hard punches. So the he has not been stopped in years argument really isn't the best indication of his ability to take a punch. Want another example? Ok-- How many years did Roy Jones go before his suspect chin was finally hit?


Like I said, Chins are best tested when they are hit, and in Johnson case there is too much evidence to suggest that he had a good chin. more like a suspect one. But when your title opponents are 59'" guys or shorter, weak punching middles, or washed up guys who have not fought in 6 years, you chin is seldom tested.


If someone can show me a detailed news read that shows say Sam McVey landing hard shots, it can change my mind a bit on what type of shot Johnson took even if Sam McVey was a teenager when the first two matches happened, and just 20 in the final match. I think MCvey, who is shown lacking skills in his prime on flimed match vs. Battling Jim ( and shying away when hit on flim ) had even less skill when he first meet Johnson, and was unlikely to land enough telling blows to test Johnson's chin.


As champion, Johnson was not tested vs a prime punchers in Mcvey or Langford. He did not fight Willls, or McCarty either. Who were the best punchers Johson meet in the Ring from 1909-1915 that landed hard stuff on him? I would say GunBoat Smith, Ketchel ( though he really didn't KO top line heavies, and WIllard. Odd, all three floored him, and two made him see stars.

 

Johnson was not ko'd cold by Choynski he was on the floor conscious , but unable to rise before ten.

Johnson did not quit against Klondike as has been proved recently on this forum.


Johnson never claimed he was floored by Langford, in his autobiography he said he must have hit Langford harder than he thought if Langford really said he dropped Johnson.

No ringside reports of their fight have ever surfaced mentioning Langford flooring Johnson.

The Ketchel kd is very debatable, posters should watch the fight in slow motion and make up their own minds about it.


Whatever conclusions they arrive at, the fact remains Johnson knocked out Ketchel for some 12 minutes immediately on arising from the floor and with his very first ,and last punch.

How about all the punchers Johnson met BEFORE he was champ?


Gunboat Smith did NOT floor Johnson, he put him part-way through the ropes in sparring, this is according to a taped interview with Smith in 1972.

Many champs are floored in sparring, including Marciano, Tyson,Vitali Klitschko,does this make their chins suspect?

Wladimir,[not Wald,]Has been kod twice in his prime , Johnson NEVER WAS.

I can show you detailed reports of Johnson thrashing McVey,will that help?


If McCvey lacked heart ,and skills, how come he beat Langford and several times drew with him and Jeannette, he also floored Langford in their Aussie fight.

If McVey was not much ,as you imply,what does that say about Langford and Jeannette?


Wills was a sometime sparring partner for Johnson who was fired because he could not take the punishment. By the time he was a world class fighter ,Johnson was well past it.



Johnson offered to defend against McCarty , but Tommy Burns who was promoting the fight between McCarty and Pelkey his protege, declined the fight' as he wanted to build up Pelkey.I posted this news report some time ago.

I agree with this statement ," there is too much evidence to suggest that Johnson had a good chin".:good

I must admit though I don't know if Johnson could cope with those ;

"BUG SHOTS", from Bruno, Morrison, and Klitschko.

Cant stop longer, going out with friends for a drink.
Thanks for the laugh.:good:good:happy

 

Look your argument is a reasonable one .. Wlad no doubt has succeeded based on a style that is highly risk adverse ... another example is Roy Jones who went almost an entire career without getting hit and once he started to his poor chin became obvious .. The lack of pre-title film of Johnson leaves a lot of speculation ( which I hope Adam's upcoming book on Johnson may help clarify) .. I still give him the benefit of the doubt that it was at least decent ...

 

Like you ,I await Adam's book.Stay well!

 

Between the Choynski fight and the Willard fight, you have a 14 year period where Johnson was never stopped despite fighting world class opponents on a regular basis.

I think that he was prety durable.

 

Not only never stopped ,only floored once during that time,and the authenticity of that knockdown is debatable .
If any fighter , fighting world class opposition, goes 14+ years without being kod,and is only floored once during that time , would we not call his chin at least durable?:think

 

If you could provide a link to this interview that would be great

 

Also, even if a fighter dosn't have the best chin, the next question is whether it is going to be bad enough to bail you out if you are not able to break him down or beat him on points.

If it isn't, then your punchers chance is prety much a snowballs chance in hell.

 

I think the debate is slight off course ... there is no doubt over an extended period against top fighters that JOhnson was never KO'ed .. the question is if it were based on his exceptional defensive skills or his chin is the point of contention ... A Roy Jones is a perfect example ... the answer is hard to say ..

 

I understand your argument, but would say that Johnson did not have the luxury of picking opponents ,he was thrown in the deep end while still a 147lbs teenager. Yes, I said 147lbs, thats what he weighed when he started out.
If Johnson's chin was suspect, I believe it would have been found out long before he climbed to fame. An earlier post I made about Johnson, offering to defend against McCarty.

Johnson Offered To Defend Against McCarty In 1913.
As classic posters will know Luther McCarty collapsed in the first round of a fight with Arthur Pelkey ,whilst McCarty was defending his White Heavyweight Championship. Reports indicate that Pelkey did not even land a significant blow on McCarty,and that the Cowboy died as a result of either injuries sustained during his previous fight with Frank Moran ,or from falling from a horse.

The original opponent of McCarty was to have been Tommy Burns, who had offered Luther $10,000 win ,lose ,or draw to come to Calgary and defend his synthetic title.
Its likely that Burns never had any intention of facing McCarty and was just drumming up publicity, this seems to have been confirmed when he abruptly pulled out of the fight and announced his protege Arthur Pelkey would instead challenge McCarty. Burns not only promoted Pelkey he had an interest in the local Stadium.
At this point the real heavyweight champion Jack Johnson , on his uppers in France, declared he would be willing to come to Calgary and defend his title against McCarty.
Burns ,who had now taken over the promotional reins of the fight, gave an interview in the Calgary Daily Herald . He grandly dismissed Johnson's offer with the statement.

"There is absolutely no reason why I should make this match,Johnson has not conducted himself in a gentlemanly manner at all since gaining the title,and,now that I am a match maker I am only putting on matches which are between men of good character and clean living fellows."

Of course, were the fight to have gone ahead Pelkey, Burns meal ticket, would have been left out in the cold and Burns with him.
I thought it was interesting that contrary to what some posters state ,the 35 years old Johnson was prepared to take on the 21years old White Heavyweight Champion who was coming off decent wins over Moran,Flynn x2 Palzer and Kaufmann. But was rejected by the erstwhile promoter [Burns].

Instead the boxing world got this.

This content is protected

And ,moments later,this.

This content is protected

 

You do not know Johnson's weight vs. Choynski, and a year after the fight in 1902 he is listed at 185 pounds. Also, I told you Johnson had 23+ recorded matches ( likely more are out there, plus battle royals ) when he was sparked by Joe Choy. Hardly a novice to the ring

Johnson was down and dazed vs Smith in 1909 to the point where his manager had to save him. I posted the NY time write up here. Smith wasn't over 190. Let me know if you want to read it for the 10th time.

Its clear, the punchers of the times who landed their hard stuff ( and I'll include Willard ) KO'd Johnson. The too small, too young or too old, could not.

I said before, if someone can show me a teenaged Sam McVey landing flush shots on news reads, I'll consider that. Until then Johnson had a suspect chin vs punchers, and used a defensive style full with clinching and safety approach more often than not.

He was Ko'd by a super middle weight, and floored by another in Ketchel. Can't get past that ...

 

Which is why I think it is best to go off the punches that landed. The too old, too small, too young could not do much. Part of this was based on Johnson's skill, the other part on his lack of competition though it should be noted the best boxer type he meet ( a much lighter Jack O'Brien ) out jabbed and landed Johnson in a fight more than one paper felt O'Brien won.



I believe chins are best graded when they are meet by force. In Johnson case, Choysnki and WiIllard Ko'd him. Gunboat Smith certainly whacked Johnson in the 4 round ex match. Down and Dazed Johnson was. Middle weight Ketchel, who hardly landed much also floored him. There is some data to go on when we know he was hit hard.

 

Hopkins might have utilized Johnson's strategy against Williard when he fought Dawson in the rematch. Hopkins effort proved to be unsuccessful as was his predecesor's, but knowing Hopkins, and his vast knowledge of boxing, it was probably his best chance.