Jack Johnson v Ketchel was a "scripted" fight made for film?

It was stopped because the white guy looked like crap vs the black guy, not because he was actually hurt.
I agree that it should have been stopped way earlier due to Flynn's amazing headbutting, and I don't mean that as a compliment.

 

I love that old photo of Johnson stood over Ketchel spark out with several ketchels teeth stuck in his glove .

 

Interesting that Phildelphia Jack O'Brien at 162 lbs, held Johnson to a draw in his shot at the Hvyweight title:

Jack Johnson vs. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
(Redirected from Fight:93902)
1909-05-19 : Jack Johnson 205 lbs drew with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 162½ lbs by NWS in round 6 of 6

• Location: National A.C., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
• Referee: Jack McGuigan

• World Heavyweight Championship (1st defense by Johnson)

Wire reports in multiple newspapers, including the San Francisco Call, had the bout a draw. The New York Times also had it a draw.

The New York Sun, Wilkes-Barre Times Leader, and Washington Herald had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even and the fifth round to Johnson.

The Trenton Times reported that the referee stated that he thought O'Brien was the winner by a shade.

The Philadelphia Inquirer, which scored the bout for Johnson, reported: "Three or four times during the mix-ups, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes."

The sports editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer wrote in the May 23 edition: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won at any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap."

The Stevens Point Daily Journal reported: "Jack Johnson, the big colored heavyweight champion, failed to win over Jack O'Brien, the Philadelphia light heavyweight, in a six-round bout. The fight was even and the consensus of opinion was that it should have been a draw, had a decision been permissible. O'Brien's marvelously fast footwork and his superior blocking saved him from damage in several close mixes, and three times he was forced to his knees by the great strength and weight of Johnson in the clinches. It was a fast fight, O'Brien doing the greater part of the leading. Johnson was slow on his feet, and appeared not to be in the best condition. Repeatedly, the champion rushed his smaller antagonist, but seldom landed effectively. A right-hand counter in the fifth round cut O'Brien's right eye, and this was the sum total of the damage done in the six rounds. Johnson had nothing to say after the bout except that he thought he had the better of it. O'Brien was enthusiastic over his showing. He said he had accepted a proposal to meet Al Kaufman in San Francisco in the near future."

All in all, it appears this bout was a draw.

 

All in all it appears it was a no decision 6 rounder! Johnson came in the ring as fat as a pig and had been to a party the night before.Reports state Johnson was puffing like a walrus after one round ,whereas O' Brien was trained to the minute.

The Philadelphia Inquirer, O' Brien's hometown paper gave the honours to Johnson. O' Brien was down 3 times.
Oh by the way, throw out those weights neither man weighed in.Johnson was estimated to be 15 pounds over the weight he gave to the newspapers. If you want to know what really happened read Adam Pollacks bio of Johnson.After the bout the Inquirer said there is no demand for a rematch. Fight was in O' Brien's hometown, he had an Irish American referee and got the lion's share of the purse.Johnson was on a flat guarantee. Knowing O Brien was no puncher and the fight was a no decision affair .Johnson trained for just 2 weeks and then only sporadically. If you want a real line on the result, consider that Burns beat O' Brien and Johnson toyed with Burns who did not win a round against him.

 

That is fake news.

 

You are a real POS, and liar. Look, Kevin Smith and Ted Spoon said what they said. Those are facts you can not change them.

If they hurt your" Agenda " so be it. In Kevin Smith's opinion Burns who was 168 pound was suffering form a Jaundice for his match vs Jack Johnson. A separate author on a Tommy Burns books says the same thing, quoting those at ringside!

Mr. Spoon said something he probably should have said...but he did say it.

NEXT!

 

Can you please stop the excuses!. Johnson was in his prime. O'Brien near the end of his career.

Fat as pig you say, more like you’re a pig like liar. Johnson was listed at 205 pounds. Pretty much the same weight he was for Ketchel, and he was not out of shape for that one. Show us a picture of Johnson being fat for this fight, Mr. Liar.

Bottom Line: O'Brien a middle weight sized guy with little punching power who gave up over 40 pounds out jabbed the heavyweight champion of the world. Some primary sources say O'Brien was the better. This should make any reasonable person wonder who Johnson would handle a larger man with a quality jab.

 

Kevin Smith came on this forum and told you not to use his name falsely to propagate your own agenda I remember it vividly.I pm'd Ted Spoon and he confirmed that he never claimed to have seen that fight and he had no idea what made you think any different. Now let's be clear.Are you now calling him a liar ?Because I can easily contact him again! Burns got on the scales nude the day before the fight and it read 168.5lbs just 2 lbs less than when he fought Squires ,and Moir.
Burns stated he was in the best shape of his life and had shed surplus flesh ,which tallies in with his weight.I have the reports.
Now consider this .Burns was the Champion, his close friend was the promoter and referee,He had demanded and got the vast bulk of the purse .With all these advantages and him calling the shots . Do you think it likely he would have gone into the ring suffering from Jaundice?

Johnson did not weigh in for the O'Brien fight neither did O Brien.Johnson was described as looking overweight and untrained in contemporary papers,Give me some incentive to post them again and I will, how about you banning yourself for a month? Agree to that and Ill take the trouble to post all the info about their condition yet again! There are no photos extant of the fight but there are contemporary accounts and reports of their respective condition .
Here is a small sample.
" Burns had trained in his usual steady,conscientious, hardworking way,and crowds of thousands at his activity,strength, and endurance.Now we have your contentionthat Ketchel and Burns won rounds against Johnson, blown clear out of the water and I happy to do the same with your other lies so bring it on !


Take up my challenge and I'll post them. Waiting for your reply!

 

Are you an idiot? Kevin Smith, who bolted from boxing to cover baseball is probably celebrating his Boston Red Sox win right now. He doesn't care enough to post about boxing, and flat out agrees with me that Burns had a Jaundice. End of. If he doesn't like me using the same facts I don't care. Burns was at low weight and not 100%. Let's deal with facts.

Ted Spoon sent me a PM verifying what he saw. If he got himself in trouble because of what he says, that's his problem. He said it. I think Ted's a fine man.

I asked you for a photo of Johnson vs O'Brien. You can't produce it, and 205 as the listed weight at box rec is 1/2 a pound from what he was vs Ketchel in the same year. DUH.

If you paid attention, Johnson didn't make much vs. Flynn ( just $21,000 ) and few people attended that fight! He could have made far more vs Langford, Jeannette, McVey or Smith, but as we know he ducked them. I strongly suspect a fight with any of those four men would draw more than 4,500 spectators meaning his purse would be more.

I already showed you that Johnson did in fact lose a round vs Burns, disproving your ridiculous allegation. Why you keep bumping my posts only to get stomped on is beyond me. You're mentally defective.

To sum it up:

1 ) Disprove that others ( not me ) said Burns had a Jaundice for the fight. I have two sources for, authors.

2 ) Disprove that others did not give Burns at least one round vs Johnson

3 ) Show me a photo of Johnson being overweight for O’Brien. New clippings can vary, we need proof.

4 ) Prove to me that the Ketchel fight and knockdown was fixed. And if you think it was, do you really think Johnson was telling the truth about the Willard fight being fixed?

If you attempt to reply to the above 4 point, I’ll gladly put you back in your wall padded room again.

 

Kevin Smith had the time, and took the trouble to come on this site and take you to task for lying about his opinion. 1.Produce a verified quote from him that states Burns had jaundice.


2.Burns doesn't say he had Jaundice.

3 Neither does his close friend the promoter and referee Hugh D McIntosh.
4. Neither does the respected author who wrote a biographies of Johnson Randy Roberts.
5. Neither does Johnson biographer Geoffrey Ward.
6. Nor biographer Denzil Batchelor.
7. Nor biographer Finis Farr.
8. Nor biographer Adam Pollack.
9.There are no known photographs of the Johnson V O Brien fight.
What we have are contemporary reports of their respective conditions ,at least I have them.YOU DO NOT!
10. Johnson received $31,000 from Barney Curley for his purse, Curley lost money on the fight. Johnson did not , source Adam Pollack! I've already explained this to you once!
11.I have the round by rounds reports of all three fights YOU DO NOT! None of the challengers won a single round.
12.You said Ketchel won a round he did NOT, in the round you stated he was sent reeling from a Johnson punch and his nose was bleeding like a faucet ,again I have the round by round report.YOU DO NOT!
13 Flynn never was in the fight , he fouled out and the referee said he did it to escape more punishment.
Fight report ? I have it! YOU DO NOT!
14.I've been asking you for 9 years , for verified offers of $30,000 for a title defence that Johnson turned down the challengers to be Jeannete,McVey, or Langford .To date you have provided NONE and you never will!
15. It is NOT up to me to prove that Burns HAD jaundice against Johnson ,it is up to YOU to prove he did.
To date you have provided NO PROOF only you saying Kevin Smith says it and that complete clown McCaffrey who knows less about boxing than one of my dogs!Where is the statement from Smith claiming this?
16. Produce proof that a reigning heavyweight champion,the favourite , a close friend of the promoter/referee would elect to go through with a defence of his title if he was suffering from jaundice.
17.You dont have A jaundice, you either have jaundice or you don't, and let me tell you now, if you were suffering from it, you would be in no condition to be fighting for the heavyweight title ,nor would you be giving public work outs until 2 days before the fight,workouts in which hundreds of spectators were remarking on your speed endurance and cleverness to the extent that they promptly made you favourite to win the fight!
18.Again it is NOT for me to disprove Burns,Ketchel, or Flynn won rounds against Johnson,it is for YOU to provide proof to the contrary ,to prove your case!
19.I cannot prove Johnson carried Ketchel but I believe he did ,and so do most objective observers.
Why else would he grab him,hold him up and prevent him from being floored twice?
20. The morning after the Willard fight Johnson went to the promoter Curley's office to collect his purse.
Curley asked him how he was feeling,he replied"pretty blue,I didnt think there was man who could survive against me if I went all out with him"."Willard beat me fair and square,I have no kick coming" Johnson also revealed that Willard knocked out his gold teeth and that he swallowed them because,"I knew what a howl would go up from
the crowd if they saw them fall on the canvas." Again, I have the verified quote.YOU DO NOT.
In fact you have JACK **** and never did have!
You're just a phobic Johnson hater who has made himself a regular laughing stock with his absurdly biased, and deranged antics and reactions on any Johnson thread.
What did McGrain call you? Our resident Johnson hater.LOl
I see you ducked my challenge,just as you ducked my request for those$30,000 offers.
You are one sad and sick individual!

 

Always feel like it is the responsibility of the fighter to show up in shape....then no questions asked if it was a legit fight.

 

Absolutely.Johnson took the **** out of the public knowing full well it was a no decision 6 rounder and that O Brien could not hurt him.
Then again this was hardly a unique situation was it? It's been occurring since boxing originated.
Ali v Young,Ali v Norton 1,Ali v Spinks 1 ,there's 3 to be going on with.Duran v Leonard2 ,Frazier v Foreman 1,Baer v Braddock, ,Lewis v Rahman 1 ,Toney v Jones another 5! Complacency,lack of dedication etc cost several of them dearly ,but Johnson knew he wouldn't be losing his title no matter what occurred,and took full advantage of the situation to turn up out of shape.
Reprehensible ?Certainly.
Demonstrating a lack of respect to the paying public? Of course ,but Johnson never gave a **** what the public thought about him did he?

 

I reckon if Johnson REALLY wanted to hurt and ko Ketch ,he'd have done so well before the 12 th.

 

I've seen that clip of Johnson sparring at the beginning many times and I can't see how he's supposed to be out of shape as Jimmy Jacobs says in the voiceover.
He looks to have a bit of a spare tire but also looks very thickly muscled, and his deltoids in particular seem to show a lot of tone. He definitely looks more fit at 245 than (say) James Toney or David Tua.

 

Not true. JJ was simply wiping debris off his gloves. The idea that Ketchels teeth were imbedded in his gloves came from Burt Sugar, I'm guess at that but I've heard him if not make it up then repeat this nonsense.