Jack Johnson v Lennox Lewis

Rocky is not overrated in a h2h sense.

 

Rocky raw? Rocky became a pretty cute fighter in that crouch around 54-55, despite his "Clumsiness". He had a lot of skills he showed. Charlie Goldman did a great job with him. Rocky was a lot more than just power and heart. Power and Heart do not beat Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, and Joe Louis.



As to the topic at hand...I think Lewis knocks Johnson out with a right hand, but I think it would be an interesting test for Lewis. What top notch defensive fighters did Lewis ever face? On the flipside, Johnson never fought a big man with the skills, jab, and power of lennox lewis

 

These are salient points, imo.

 

Sorry I called your boyfriend Jack Dempsey a ***** boy carlos. I hope I'm allowed to post in the classic forum again.

 

How about someone as... raw... as Dempsey?

The Mauler is raw like cocaine straight from Bolivia.

 

carlos likes his old white guys raw :hey

Ok I'll stop now.

 

I don't think it's fair to use the Choynski fight against Johnson, as he was very green and training at that time was more of a nomadic process for most.

But Johnson, as much as I love him, is too small for Lewis. He's simply too short.

 

Slightly bigger, quicker and more powerful than rocky, no?

 

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

I think it has more to do with his work rate and the nature of the opposition against which he fought. I am constantly reminded of how small Johnson was in some of his important losses. Yet when he was at his robust prime fighting weight, he fought 167 lb Tommy Burns (who though a good fighter was not a heavyweight no matter how many overgrown slobs he KO'd), drew with Jack O'Brien, fought no hoper Tony Ross, hit the deck versus middle Ketchell, beat down a complete and utter hasbeen in Jeffries and fought to a dubious draw against Battling Jim Johnson. So, this is the prime, unbeatable Johnson I am supposed to be awed by? This is the resume of the great Johnson at his ripped and prime weight? Or perhaps someone wants to tell me when exactly this prime of mythology occurred. Can't it be argued that Johnson's greatest victories came at under 190? Should that, more proven, version be the one entering the ring against Lewis?

 

I somewhat agree. Johnson's prime was surely his pre championship run, the one that shits all over his attempts at being a world champion.

 

This content is protected

 

Corbett was much more experienced than Choynski.
Fitz was dropped and nearly out against Choynski.

You keep repeating the fight took place in Galveston ,exactly what difference did that make?
Choynski himself said Johnson was green.
THis is the guy we are talking about.

This content is protected

​

This content is protected

​

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

Joe Choynski, also known as "Chrysanthemum Joe" for his blonde hair, stood slightly over 5'10". During his distinguished twenty-year career, his weight fluctuated between the low 160s and low 180s. Despite his relatively slight frame, his style and pluck would remain permanently etched on the collective psyches of the elite fighters of his era.

Joe Choynski was born of Jewish extraction in San Francisco on November 8, 1868. He began his amateur career in 1884 with an exhibition bout against Jim Corbett. In 1888, Choynski turned pro, and compiled a record of 52-14-6 (22 KOs) before retiring in 1904.

Choynski faced the absolute elite of both the bareknuckle and gloved eras. He matched his skill and will not only against Corbett, Jeffries, and Sharkey, but also against Peter Jackson, Bob Fitzsimmons, Kid McCoy, Gus Ruhlin, the original Joe Walcott, Jack Johnson, and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. Choynski fought an exhibition bout with John L. Sullivan in 1891. It was a veritable Who's Who of the wild pioneer days of the sport.

Choynski is often recognized for utilizing a scientific approach to defuse brute power. In looking at Choynski's record, it isn't surprising considering that 42% of his wins were by knockout. Ironically, his most famous opposition claimed that he was the hardest puncher they ever faced.

From Kelly Richard Nicholson's outstanding 2002 biography of James J. Jeffries, A Man Among Men, The Life and Ring Battles of Jim Jeffries, Heavyweight Champion of the World, Richardson describes the brutality of Jeffries' twenty round draw with Choynski. The bout was held at Woodward's Pavillion in San Francisco on November 30, 1897.

"In this bout Jeff took a punch that he remembered for the rest of his life. It came in the sixteeenth, when Choynski drew cheers from his comeback rally. Under siege, at this point, and backed to the ropes with Jeff coming forward, the smaller man set himself and unloaded a right hand on Jeffries mouth. Jeff caught it square, and it had the force of a sledgehammer. By his own reckoning, he never took a harder shot in his whole career. The blow landed on his nose and mouth, breaking his nose and actually wedging his lip between two front teeth. His handler cut loose the flesh when he returned to his corner, and for the rest of the fight Jeff spit blood by the mouthful to avoid swallowing it."

Before Choynski made an indelible impression on Jeffries, he fought Corbett in the pro ranks three times in 1889. A fourth bout was scheduled in 1892, but I've never seen a report verifying that the bout actually occurred. All told, their best bout was their second bout, which occurred on May 30, 1889, and took place on a barge in Benicia Bay near San Francisco. This bout marked a major turning point in Corbett's career because Gentleman Jim was able to stifle critics who opined that he was too cultured to dig down deep against the toughest available opposition.

Corbett reportedly wore two ounce gloves for the fight, and Choynski reportedly wore "skin gloves." Corbett learned valuable lessons against the tricky and hard punching Choynski. Hurt badly on several occasions, Corbett rallied and put Choynski down for the count in the twenty-seventh round, and then collapsed into the arms of his handlers at the end of the bout.

Years later, Corbett had this to say about his bout with Choynski in his autobiography: "Choynski was to be the very toughest battle I had ever fought or was to fight; one in which I was to receive more punishment than I have ever had in all my battles put together."

Choynski's 1894 bout with Bob Fitzsimmons is listed as a fifth round draw, but it is noteworthy that newspaper reports indicate the bout was actually stopped by police. Choynski decked Fitzsimmons with a wicked right to the jaw in the third round. Ruby Rob barely beat the count and was in dire straights for the remainder of the round, but Choynski couldn't land the coup de grace. In kind, the ultra-game Fitzsimmons rallied before the police stepped in.












Like Jeffries, Fitzsimmons later credited Choynski with being the hardest puncher he ever faced

 

That number of fights in the early 20th Century doesn't count for much. Without an amateur system or even an reputable place to build skills, talented fighters had to feel their way along.

Choynski respected Johnson quite a bit and, as noted above, said that the kid was green.

Now, the other criticisms of Johnson do hold some merit, but I think Choynski is a non-factor.

 

I wouldn't go as far to say as the Choynski fight was a non-factor. Hell, 24 fights is more than either Jeffries or Corbett had in their entire careers. The fight holds significant weight but was not a championship level event. And Johnson was green but certainly good enough for a test like Joe. He failed; plenty of fighters do early on and overcome it to do great things.