Jack Johnson v Rocky Marciano

Marciano had far more talented and far better than Sharkey.

 

Because gloves are smaller now, and the length of fights are cut in half. If you have a great workrate by todays standards, you're gonna die when it goes past 15 rounds.

 

A 15round fighter throwing more punches than a 40 round fighter means???

The 15round fighter has a higher workrate/stamina in general?

DO olympic 4round boxers have better stamina than 12round boxers because they throw more leather?

Could a 100metre sprinter beat a marathon runner at marathon running because he runs 100metres faster?

 

Saying Marciano did well against skilled boxers isn't true when you look at the context

Charles - 32 and 4years past prime, Charles won the early rounds impressively, its conceivable a prime Charles keeps this up

Walcott - 38 and again past his prime, again won the early rounds and piled up a lead before being caught upto late. Ofcourse managed to drop and hurt Rocky. Could a younger Walcott keep the pace up?

Moore - 39 - just didnt have the workrate/stamina/strength at 39 to live with Marciano

LaStarza - not as good as the top 2 and possibly beat Rocky first time out

 

We cant relly tell on LarStarza I as we dont have footage and reports have it 50 50 one side or the other. Lets also recall Rocky put Roland down for a 9 count.

As for Walcott, Well Marciano starting getting in the grove by the 3rd round, and won rounds 3 4, and 6 and 7 on my card, so he should have been ahead. The movement Rocky got blind, the tied change, and Walcott took the rest of the rounds outside of round ten. Big 11 round for Walcott. So I belive had Rocky not got blind, he would have keep the scoring ahead or even.

As for Charles, it took a few rounds for Rocky to warm out. Marciano have not fought in half a year leading to the fight. So Rocky was pretty rusty. But once he got warm up, Charles could not keep up with the pace Rocky set.

 

In a 15rounder it goes as follows:

Rounds 1-5- Johnson outboxes Marciano beating him to the punch and hitting him clean time and again, Marciano trys to land shots but Johnsons backward movement and countering is makign him miss and getting outlanded at a very high rate, Johnsons holding on the inside stops a great deal of Marcianos work

Rounds 6-9 - Johnson is leading less but picking the exchanges, Marciano is still ramping up the pace and the bodyshots are starting to slow Johnson down but Rock is getting countered flush at the same time, Rockys workrate wins him 6 and 8 despite eating flush counters, missing allot and not getting off due to holding, Johnson puts in late rallys in 7 and 9 to win those rounds, round 9 saw Marciano staggered and backed up at the end of the round

Round 10- Rocky comes out after being staggered in the prior round a little more cautiously picking his shots more, he lands some very impressive bodyshots in this round as Johnsons pace has dropped, possibly taking a round off.

Round 11 - Marciano gets another wind in the 11th gaining confidence from the 10th and knowing he needs to win some big rounds. Working the body hard, Johnson is still landing counters but is fighting at a pace he doesn't necessarily like, Marciano is now landing more headshots, Johnson is holding allot more and is visable hurt by a right hand. This is Marcianos best round but it takes allot out of him and he looks a little uncharacteristically tired going back to his corner

Round 12 - Marciano again comes out aggressively and backs Johnson to the ropes despite eating a combination in the way in. He continues to goto the body but after the hard 11th doesn't have quite the energy to get combinations off as emphatically as the prior round. Johnson is countering more as Rocky slows a little. As Marciano comes on the inside he is held and Johnson makes good use of his trademark uppercut. At 2miniutes Rocky is winning the round but his pace drops, Johnson is seeing more openings and landing counter uppercuts and counter rights. Rocky is visable hurt with a right counter and Johnson mounts and attack that sees Rocky floored, Rocky takes a lshellshocking at the end of the round

Round 13 - Rocky still stunned from the 12th starts at a slower pace not leaving openings and fighting more in the middle of the ring. Johnson is for the first time since the 5th looking to lead and get his shots off first. Johnson is throwing 1 or 2 shots, grabbing and uppercutting. Marciano recovers in the round due to Johnsons conservative style and his own survival and countering skills

Round 14 - for the first miniute Johnson with his second wind again starts more aggressively than his mid-rounds counter punching style to a leading potshot, jab/straight and grab and uppercut style. A recovered Marciano has found a second wind himself and is really going for it as the round progresses looking to land punches anywhere he can. His bodypunching and constant combination punching is pushing Johnson back to the ropes. Johnson spoils with his holding, parrying and slipping but he is visable not liking the pace near the end of the round as hes almost stopped punching. Throughout the fight hes leaned back to avoid shots and at 2:45 the tired Johnson leans to avoid a left hook on the ropes. Marciano immediately follows the left with the Suzie Q Right, Johnson is punched through the ropes. Dazed and on wobbly legs he gets to his feet and gets back through the ropes. Marciano unleashes a rampant attack to the body and head

Round 15 - Marciano comes out like a bull, Johnson the metador. Johnson is just looking to move, spoil with holding and use his slipping and leaning to keep him out of trouble. His negative tactics make the 15th the worst of the fight. Marciano clearly wins the round only eating the occasional uppercut for his trouble but he doesn't get off anything particullarly devastating and his hopes of a last round KO are devasted as he throws everything he has left in the tank.

Johnson 143 Marciano 140

 

I belive if Ketchal can put Johnson down, and Willard can put Johnson OUT. I think Marciano stands a very good shot on winning by ko.
Johnson did not have a iron chin, which your round by round shows, Your underating Marciano's ablity at finishing a hurt foe. He is relly up there with Louis or Dempsey in that regard. Johnson wont have time to recover imo.

 

It boils down to the kind of pressure Marciano would put on Johnson and his rythym breaking style. I think Johnson was a lot stronger than given credit for but the right hands of Marciano and his power take there toll. Jeffries fought the fight against Johnson at Johnson's pace. Marciano would fight a pace Johnson was not comforable with. I know the Burns fight was a fast and furious but Marciano hurt you badly with his power. I see a Marciano stop from 10-15

 

i thought johnson took a dive v willard?

 

We've gone over this before - Charles fought one of the best fights of his life and had beaten a lot of top10 contenders coming in, and most of the press thought he deserved to get the decision against Layne, Johnson and Walcott IV, in which his opponent got the nod.

Moore had recently compiled a 45-1 record, beating several top heavyweights in the process. He also beat guys like Whitehurst by KO faster than Liston could, before and after the Marciano fight - if he was old and shot, how come he did this more impressively than a natural heavyweight like Liston at his peak?

As for Walcott, he wasn't as good as he was against Louis, but he certainly still had a lot left, and was knocked out twice.

The argument that Marciano would lose to a younger or better boxer than Walcott does not really hold water, either. Similar reasoning would make one believe that Holmes has no chance against boxers because he nearly lost to an old Norton and basically drew or lost to a green Witherspoon. Ali always struggled with Norton as well and had a close one with Jones. Doesn't mean they're unable to beat better boxers.


As for them being wore down, this was part of Marciano's strategy. Losing a few early rounds at the price of wearing his opponent down. You might say it was age, but his younger opponents, i.e. Layne, LaStarza and Cockell followed this pattern as well.

 

not to mention walcotts SPECTACULAR kayo over a prime ezzard charles to win the title just one year prior to the marciano fight.

 

Willard knocked out Johnson due to exhaustion, not because of his power or Johnson´s chin.

 

None of this matters because he fought old men that couldn't fight a frentic pace for 15rounds, I'm not saying they weren't good but its liek Calazage beating Hopkins today, the younger Hopkins would have had the stamina to take Calazage apart, todays Hopkins is a top fighter who only has 1st and 2nd gear, same with Walcott/Charles/Moore

If Rocky fought the younger versions he would have losses on his record imo. Charles had been clearly declining, he was winning clearly at the half way stage and faded down the stretch, a prime version won't have faded and would take Marciano on points for my money

 

Terrible comparison, Ketchel only put Johnson down because Johnson was carrying him in a fix and both agreed to not throw bigger shots, Ketchel renegaded on the deal and a few seconds later paid by having his teeth inplanted into Johnsons glove.

Johnson didnt get ko'd by Willard until the 26th round in very hot conditions at the age of 37 while way out of shape and untrained. Johnson was also semi-retired. Lets see how a 37yo innactive untrained Rocky does against Liston/Williams in a 30rounder

 

And then went to get a gift in the 4th match with Charles