Jack Johnson v Rocky Marciano

I have 4 biographies on Johnson ,plus his autobiography,all the available film on him and Jeffries,and have been following ,studying ,and reading about boxing for over half a century.You made inaccurate asssrtions to back up a flawed argument ,have been made to look a fool and don't like it.If you can come up with ONE FIGHT OF JOHNSON OR JEFFRIES THAT WENT 40 RDS,I will apologise publicly to you on this forum.Otherwise I think we all know you are wrong but havent the good manners ,or balls to admit it.

 

I'm touched.

 

There are also articles floating around that vaguely suggest Jeffries fought and beat Martin, Griffin and others. However, one article, which, let's face it, is written by people as knowledgeable or even less so as us, does not make it fact.

 

Johnson is a notch above Dempsey, that's all there is to it. The day will come when Dempsey's truthful place in Heavyweight boxing history will be recognised by most people: ie: not in the top 10.

 

The fight against Ray was meant to be a bad decision Ring Magazine said that Charles was the better of the two and Ezzard was giving up 20lbs and Ray was Charles biggest opponent at that stage of his career. Not to mention that Charles avenged that loss via knockout less then a year later. And I personally feel Charles had more mileage by the time he fought Rocky then Elmer had by the time he met Charles.

 

Still waiting for the evidence, Slick southpaw.

 

Marciano's stature would be an asset here. Johnson would have to make sure he clamped those little arms down tight and I can see Marciano getting through more than expected. But Johnson IMO is a different level of fighter altogether. It's going to be frustrating for Marciano being locked up, taking shots but with no opportunity to throw back. He'd have to be able to handle that.

these 2 may have been the best arm punchers in history (not in the conventional sense but in the sense of actually hitting their opponents arms.)

 

Hi Seamus

Don't you think that the way octopus Hopkins mauls and spoils, lands sneaky shots and wrestles, rarely taking a clean shot in reply, is somewhat similar to Johnson?

 

At 32 you can not be 4 years past your prime for Charles vs Rocky who was @29.
Old days of deep talent pool, I was told by old men then (late 50's), and I am 60, that Lightweights were old at 26, middleweights at 28, and Heavies at 33 (One of the reasons why both Moore and Liston lied about their ages...no one wanted to go watch an old man)

Now you have a lot of old fighters fighting other old fighters because the talent pool is shallow.....there is no single line of contenders...(Actually today the contender has choice which Champ he wants to fight...The contender has the choice) Also King and that other guyAram? controlled so many fighters...for so long....
At 32 a Tennis player is in his last year as great, then the reflexes go down hill, and fast.
For 4/5 rounds Rocky was fighting with some crap in his eyes vs Walcott 1...that explains why he did so poorly those rounds.
Rockey fought out of the crouch, and that makes it a bit harder to upper cut him. It makes him harder to hit cleanly.
They have on Youtube, Rocky's slick moves at his prime, when he was very good at ducking and slipping punches. That had come together for him, just before he became Champ.

A 20 round fighter paced himself, to go 20-25 rounds, so they were not use to going all out, like Rocky. Rocky was the most conditioned Heavy perhaps of all time, he could go that same 3 minute round for 15 and would as far as I can think have more condition that Johnson even if they went 20.

Size Johnson 6 1 1/2 -74 inch reach.....was a 185 pound fighter until he took the Championship at 192....Jefferys fight at 208 and then against Ketchel and O'Brien @212. Against a middle weight or a 6 round fight vs a Lt. Heavy one don't have to be in prime weight. Prime weight 192-208.

Marciano 5-10 67 inch reach, mostly a 184-188.. Striving to make his fighting weight for quickness and condition....
So most of the time there was no big weight difference, until after Johnson won the championship., then we are not talking a lot for Rocky who was use to beating bigger men.
So I do not see Johnson winning in the clinches by being "bigger" or stronger.
Johnson lost a 5th round TKO vs Haines and a 3 round KO vs 167 pound Choiski(sp) (excuse was not as experienced)
Johnson had a pro fight then took a few years off....but he was being trained by one of the better "Professors" as they use to call trainers of the time in Galvsiton....so he was not that green or the match vs Choiski(sp) would never have happened.....and in Jail Choiski(sp) gave lessons.....

Often when he did TKO/KO a name before he was Champ it took him two or three fights to do so...so he was not a power puncher.....IMO he didn't have enough to get Rocky's respect...Rock walks through him.

Rocky wins...when...First two rounds....or round 10.....by TKO/KO

Rock Like Dempsey or Tyson KO's a lot of good men in two rounds. Rock carried his power through the late rounds too.
Johnson gets no rest...has to fight 3 full minutes of every round..., something he or dammed few others are use to.

 

The uppercut is particularly effective against crouching fighters ,I don't follow your logic here.Because Johnson was not a power hitter Marciano walks through him? Lastarza had only average power yet went 21 rounds with Marciano,Ted Lowry another soft hitter went 20 rds .Yet Johnson vastly superior to either gets blown away in a couple of rounds? Walcott said he found it hard to hit Rocky flush with power punches ,but easy to connect with point scoring leads and jabs.Marciano was no crude oaf ,but neither was he a defensive boxer,he got pretty badly mauled in all his major fights,and was in danger of being stopped against Charles and Keene Simmons .I can understand any one picking Rocky in this match up ,but it would be no blow out.,personally ,I think Jack takes a dec.

 

How is Marciano's lack of stature an asset ?He fought out of a crouch the most effective weapon against a shorter croucher is the uppercut,Johnson is acknowledged as having the best uppercut of the Heavyweights.

 

Examples of uppercuts being effective against crouching shorter men ,Johnson against Flynn ,and Burns.Robinson against Basilio,Louis against Godoy .After Louis had that close one with Godoy ,Blackburn put him back in the gym and made him throw uppercuts with both hands for 4 weeks,the results can be seen on Godoy's face,like wise Basilio's eye.

 

On the one hand, I hear praise for Johnson's ability to go many, many rounds and how this would be a deciding factor against someone like Marciano. On the other, his ignominious defeat to Willard is because he was exhausted. I hate to correct but Johnson was getting nailed for two rounds before the final punch, and those final punches were HUGE, thrown by a man with enormous strength and power, a man who endured the same set of conditions that Havana day that Johnson endured.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Yes but to be fair his loss to Willard occured when he was very, very faded. You also have to take into account how exhausting it is wrestling with a giant like Jess Willard for 20 plus rounds.