Jack Johnson vs. David Tua

For myself, I judge them on what they were, not on some hypothetical "would have been".
Marciano carrying another 20lbs would be slower. and have less stamina. Johnson ,carrying extra weight has it on his hips and arse, what's the benefit of that? It 's hard enough comparing fighters from different eras without fanciful conjecture about how they would look if they were juiced etc.imo.

 

Exactly.

 

I agree with Seamus. Fighters like Burns, Hart, Sharkey etc.. if they were around from say the 70's to today would not be fighting in the heavyweight division. They would look ridiculously small compared to the fighters of these eras and would stand a chance of getting seriously hurt if they tried to compete there. Does anyone really believe these men would be competitive with the likes of Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton and later on Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson or the Klitschko's? I certainly don't. There comes a point when size and athleticism matter and I think this illustrates that point. Putting weight on these men to possibly allow them to compete wouldn't work. Weight isn't the answer. As the generations went by, athletes got bigger, stronger and faster. Recruitment, nutrition and training also improved all over the sports landscape. Sure the old timers were tough as nails and well conditioned, but that doesn't mean that they would reign supreme in later generations. Some would do well in any generation...especially in the lighter weights (Leonard, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Gans erc..) A lightweight is a lightweight after all no matter the time period. But the heavyweight landscape has certainly changed....though not always for the better I'll admit. Big men got bigger, and faster and stronger. In Boxing I feel Ali ushered in the new era of that type of fighter that just wasn't around in previous era's and for awhile anyway we never looked back. Relatively speaking the old timers were every bit as good...and sometimes better. Comparitively however things have changed. I doubt we'll ever see a 185lb "Heavyweight" champion again. Just like we'll never see a starting five in basketball that are no taller than 6'5". Or an offensive line in pro football that average 250lbs. No matter how good they may be.

 

THe point is still valid though.. fighters then trained DOWN in weight not up. So if they were around today.. they would certainly be bigger.. which is the point he was making. How much bigger.. who knows.

 

None of these fighters used weights to add muscle mass. It appears that there use of weights was limited to dumbell and kettle bell work.

No I don't know how much weight they could have added, or what effect it would have had. The one certainty is that they would all have added significant muscle mass if they used modern training methods.

It simply couldn't be otherwise.

 

Honestly, I think even at 200 pounds, Johnson would have outboxed Tua. I think that about 200 pound Ali as well as a low 200s Holmes as well. Weight doesn't matter when you have fast skillful boxers with footwork, fast hands, and great defense.

 

The problem IMO is that Johnson did not really outbox opponents, jab grab clinch uppercut rinse and repeat.......at a very slow pace by todays standard and there is absolutly no possibility that he handles Tua in a clinch by being the stronger man, it will be the opposite by a significant margin.

I have watched all the available film on him and I cannot see anything special no matter how hard I try that he would be successful straight out of a time machine.

Plus I never go by newspaper accounts or sportswriters of ANY era......they are biased as ****, just look at Borges, Merchant or Atlas and in order to sell a fight to have to hype the opponent to the max .....fact not fiction, naturally all Johnson competition were "Killers" lol.

I do not think of the one trick pony Tua highly, but his left hook is about as powerful as it gets and it comes with speed, Johnson WILL get hit and I am convinced he has never felt that kind of power and will get KO'ed accordingly.

Head to head this is a mismatch, boxing legacy, yeah Jonson by a mile.

 

I don't think that Sharkey being any more yoked would have helped his abilities in the ring. He, Fitz, Corbett, Hart, Burns, O'Brien, Ketchel and likes simply did not possess the frame of a modern heavyweight. You can put all armaments you desire on a canoe but it will never be a dreadnaught. It will merely sink.

 

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...=nyp.33433066622964;page=root;seq=120;num=112

This link gives extracts from Siler's book and his opinion on Jack Johnson .
Siler sayes Jackson was the best of the black fighters, but that he had nothing on Johnson in defensive abilities
Siler claims the credit for discovering Johnson in the Battle Royals, and steering him towards Johnny Conners, the fight promoter.
You will notice Siler's words " he lost to Choynski, was decided against in his fight with Hart ,and fouled Jeannette". Siler believed Johnson beat Hart, and said so in the Police Gazette. Siler states he thought Johnson was a coming champion, so much for your " interpretation" of things.

PS. It's as well to have actually read a book before using it to make inaccurate misleading claims.
Otherwise you end up looking as you do now, a total prat.

 

Add Louis, Marciano, Walcott, Charles to that list as well.. Yet, when they fought bigger men... they seemed to do okay.. Go figure.

 

i am pretty sure that Herbert Slade could have mirrored a David Tua in size.