Jack Johnson vs. David Tua

Mr Butt · Nov 29, 2011

KuRuPT said: ↑

Don't know if they were or not, and neither do you. What I do know is that there were athletic marvels in 1898 just like there were in 1998. There have always been people that much more athletically gifted than the majority of people. It doesn't matter if they were as good then as now, because many variables have increased performaces for athletes of today. Make no mistake though, there were still gifted athletes then whether they were on the Lacrosse team or not.
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i voted johnson i cant see tua landing many clean shots

cross_trainer · Nov 29, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

You seem to believe that before WW11 everyone walked around in bearskins, and carried clubs.
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Given the existence of nuclear weapons, I suspect that people will be walking around in bearskins and carrying clubs after World War 11.

Mr Butt · Nov 29, 2011

cross_trainer said: ↑

Given the existence of nuclear weapons, I suspect that people will be walking around in bearskins and carrying clubs after World War 11.
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janitor · Nov 29, 2011

Seamus said: ↑

He lost to a slippery, extremely skilled and talented former middle who weighed in at a real heavyweight weight for a good many years (by your logic Dempsey can be referred to as a former middleweight)...
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There is a big difference between naturaly filling out to a given weight, and bulking up to it using weights and suplements. Now even if Byrd was all that, he still fought at light heavyweight at the age of 37. That rather calls into question the size argument in this case.

powerpunching middle/lightheavy and at the peak of his powers drew with a dancing lil' Irishman, the latter who looks like crap on film. Furthermore, he lost (or did not do enough to win) against a doughboy soft hillbilly who we can flatteringly refer to as a cruiserweight. Though not at all his fault, it was a sign of the times that he took his title from a feisty supermiddleweight with birthing hips, real athletic stock there.

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You can spout your mantra about middleweights and doughboy soft hillbillies all you want. It is nothing more than the crudest form of propaganda.

You think that Johnson put on some subpar performences in his key career fights?

At least he didn't loose every single one of them.

Every time Tua was offered a title fight or a title eliminator aginst a prime elite fighter he came up short. You can argue that Lennox Lewis was a great fighter and a superheavyweight, but Byrd was a future light heavyweight, and Ramhan was not particularly durable, yet this surposed wrecking machine came up short against both.

What do you imagine is going to happen if you match him against the best heavyweight from another era?
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janitor · Nov 29, 2011

Cael said: ↑

Well put, it's not like Johnson ever got KTFO by middleweights himself.
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Well at least Johnson managed to beat the top contenders of his era.

Who is the best fighter that Tua beat, and what was their ranking?

he grant · Nov 29, 2011

WE saw this fight ... Chris Byrd did it and Johnson would do it better and more decisive ...

Seamus · Nov 29, 2011

janitor said: ↑

There is a big difference between naturaly filling out to a given weight, and bulking up to it using weights and suplements. Now even if Byrd was all that, he still fought at light heavyweight at the age of 37. That rather calls into question the size argument in this case.

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You have proof that he used supplements (note the correct spelling)? Are you inferring he did something illegal? Because most champion level fighters were very careful regarding diet in reference to the weight class in which they wished to compete.

You can spout your mantra about middleweights and doughboy soft hillbillies all you want. It is nothing more than the crudest form of propaganda.
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How exactly would you classify Mr. Hart? Why don't we see his likes doing anything in the heavyweight division anymore? Would he even be considered a world class athlete were he dropped into anytime in last 30 years?

You think that Johnson put on some subpar performences in his key career fights?

At least he didn't loose every single one of them.
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Again, you seem unable to separate the idea of greatness relative to an era and greatness head to head. I have in the past asked what exactly were Johnson's prime defining fights? A 169 pound Canuck with the physique of a 1940's bathing beauty? A burned out old Alfalfa farmer who spent the better part of 5 years as his saloon's best customer? A hophead middleweight?
And sorry to be the spelling marm but it's "lose" not "loose".

Every time Tua was offered a title fight or a title eliminator aginst a prime elite fighter he came up short. You can argue that Lennox Lewis was a great fighter and a superheavyweight, but Byrd was a future light heavyweight, and Ramhan was not particularly durable, yet this surposed wrecking machine came up short against both.

What do you imagine is going to happen if you match him against the best heavyweight from another era?
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All era's are not equal. Era's in which the cream of the crop were lightheavies and middles are by definition bad heavyweight era's... unless you believe there is no legitimacy in the idea of weight divisions. And if you are arguing the case of supplements in Byrd's career, it is more appropriate to argue their effect in his weight loss to the LHW limit at the end of his career (which ended disastrously) than in arguing conversely in his rise to being a heavyweight.
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cross_trainer · Nov 29, 2011

Seamus said: ↑

All era's are not equal. Era's in which the cream of the crop were lightheavies and middles are by definition bad heavyweight era's... unless you believe there is no legitimacy in the idea of weight divisions. And if you are arguing the case of supplements in Byrd's career, it is more appropriate to argue their effect in his weight loss to the LHW limit at the end of his career (which ended disastrously) than in arguing conversely in his rise to being a heavyweight.
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Since we're discussing spelling, "eras" (as in the plural of "era") is spelled without an apostrophe, since it's not possessive.

(I'm not trying to be obnoxious. Just thought you'd like to know, since you mentioned it above).

On the topic, though: I remember when I posted a thread many years ago, when Byrd, Jones, and Toney had ascended into the heavyweight ranks. I speculated about how modern diet and training might allow smaller fighters to compete with the big boys in ways that they hadn't before. Amusing prediction in retrospect.

Seamus · Nov 29, 2011

cross_trainer said: ↑

Since we're discussing spelling, "eras" (as in the plural of "era") is spelled without an apostrophe, since it's not possessive.

(I'm not trying to be obnoxious. Just thought you'd like to know, since you mentioned it above).

On the topic, though: I remember when I posted a thread many years ago, when Byrd, Jones, and Toney had ascended into the heavyweight ranks. I speculated about how modern diet and training might allow smaller fighters to compete with the big boys in ways that they hadn't before. Amusing prediction in retrospect.
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Absolutely corrected on spelling... those apostrophes are a nasty habit of mine. I plead 4 vodkas and a rudimentary education!

Byrd ascended to the division but attained true heavyweight stature... 6 foot, 215 pounds. More ripped than that diaper wearing Marvin Hart or many of the other 200+ heavies of his era. Jones, Jr. did nothing but cherrypick one opponent; he did not really figure in the division. Toney was a fat fraud who got beat down by the crudest of sluggers and drugged his way into any shape.

Seriously, I am a bit of Devil's Advocate in the this case of unknowables. I think it would be a dandy match-up. But despite my belief that Johnson was a great fighter adaptable to any era, that group of so-called heavies he beat constitute the most miserable collection of barroom brawlers this sport ever observed in a single division.

Mendoza · Nov 29, 2011

mcvey Johnson retired between rounds in 2 fights ,against Bob Lawson on 30th May 1926 he had been floored in the 7th round.Johnson was 48 years old

He also retired against Bill Hartwell 2 years later, Johnson broke his hand in the 2nd round but continued until the end of the 6th round, Johnson was 50 years old.Less than a month later, Hartwell stopped Larry Gains in 6 rds.

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BS! He also quit like a dog and left poop on the floor vs Klondike. You can't play the double standard card with me. Get a life and please learn soemthing. I could care less if Johnson beat a old fighter who had not fought in 5 years. Jeffries went out on his sheild.

mcvey · Nov 29, 2011

Mendoza said: ↑

BS! He also quit like a dog and left poop on the floor vs Klondike. You can't play the double standard card with me. Get a life and please learn soemthing. I could care less if Johnson beat a old fighter who had not fought in 5 years. Jeffries went out on his sheild.
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George Siler ,the premier referee of the time stated Johnson was half starved when he fought Klondike,it was a tko stoppage by the way .

Klondike was on the floor in an earlier round , but stopped Johnson who was on his feet at the time of the cessation.

It's classic that you state," please learn something" spelling it soemthing, leave out the" n "on an, then spell shield wrong.

What the **** could I possibly learn from you, except how to make a mistake in every sentence?.atsch

You opened the batting on this exchange , I've bowled you out .TWICE!

Mendoza · Nov 30, 2011

mcvey George Siler ,the premier referee of the time stated Johnson was half starved when he fought Klondike,it was a tko stoppage by the way .
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Siler also said Johnson shamelessly fouled Joe Jeanette:deal Siler did not view Johnson as a great fighter. How do you like Siler now And how do we know if Klondike wasn't hungry too. Johnson was getting meals back then.

You opened the batting on this exchange , I've bowled you out .TWICE!
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Like hell you did. You went at Tua for not trying who happened to be facing a prime version of Lennox Lewis. Johnson is guilty of not trying and quitting multiple in fights. He was KTFO by a super middle weight, and floored by another. He was out boxed by much smaller O'Brien, and picked cream puffs for title matches. Nothing you bowl will change that!!!!

janitor · Nov 30, 2011

Seamus said: ↑

You have proof that he used supplements (note the correct spelling)? Are you inferring he did something illegal? Because most champion level fighters were very careful regarding diet in reference to the weight class in which they wished to compete.

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I am saying that whether he did it legaly or illegaly, he had a whole range of suplements and methods for adding weight at his disposal.

A fighter from Johnsons era either would not have had these opptions, or would have chosen not to employ them.

How exactly would you classify Mr. Hart? Why don't we see his likes doing anything in the heavyweight division anymore? Would he even be considered a world class athlete were he dropped into anytime in last 30 years?
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Thats just the point though, we do.

Light heavyweights and middleweights are still competing at heavyweight.

They just have the option at their disposal of bulking up to 210lbs, which a similar fighter in the pre war era would not have done. The training routines have changed, but it is still the same types of fighters making up the heavyweight class.

Again, you seem unable to separate the idea of greatness relative to an era and greatness head to head.
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The main seperation is that greatness relative to era can be tangibly measure, while greatness head to head is purely speculative.

Even if you give head to head ratings a high weighting (which you absolutely shouldnt), it would still be crass to pick fighters who never realy got anywhere in one era over those who dominated another.

I have in the past asked what exactly were Johnson's prime defining fights? A 169 pound Canuck with the physique of a 1940's bathing beauty? A burned out old Alfalfa farmer who spent the better part of 5 years as his saloon's best customer? A hophead middleweight?

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Well, why don't we start with Tua's career defining fights.

He didn't have any!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Literaly anything I could put up for Johnson would trump that.

All era's are not equal. Era's in which the cream of the crop were lightheavies and middles are by definition bad heavyweight era's... unless you believe there is no legitimacy in the idea of weight divisions.
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There are lightheavies or middles in the cream of the crop of every era.

I cannot think of a single exception.
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KuRuPT · Nov 30, 2011

Seamus, are you actually saying Tua wins trump Johnson long long run of being unbeaten and disposing of Langford, McVey, Joe J, Burns, Jeffries, Jim Johnson, Ketchel etc etc? If so, I strongly disagree. You show me one fight where Tua beat a top contender or belt holder and then we can talk. Until then, Tua doesn't even belong in the same sentence with the great Jack Johnson.

You claim people can't seperate this from that... yet you seem unable to seperate different eras from one another and how to view them. Do you not think Jim Brown was great? How about Jim Thorpe? How about Jesse Owens? Each one of these guys are without a doubt below people athletes of today from an athletic point of view. Jesse Owens times are a joke compared to the times of today. Jim Browns 40 yard dash is a joke compared to today's times. Yet, why do people consider them so great... BECAUSE THEY WERE GREAT IN THEIR ERA WHEN ALL THE OTHER ATHLETES WERE USING THE SAME TRAINING METHODS TO GET BETTER AND EMPLOY THE TECHNIQUES THOUGHT TO BE SOUND FOR THE DAY. Johnson beat a crop of fighters you like to equate to ballroom brawlers based on their style and stature. Problem is, that is just how people fought back then and how big people were back then. Yet, during said time with the playing field level.. Johnson completely and utterly dominated the era. So yes, that is the measuring stick. It's moving the goal post to try and say well Tua opponents were more skilled fighters and bigger fighters than Johnson beat. Umm duh, but what is your point? As I illustrated, each era is different, but each era has people that stand out above the rest for a reason. Guess what, Tua was not one of the people, Johnson unquestionably was.

frankenfrank · Nov 30, 2011

KuRuPT said: ↑

Seamus, are you actually saying Tua wins trump Johnson long long run of being unbeaten and disposing of Langford, McVey, Joe J, Burns, Jeffries, Jim Johnson, Ketchel etc etc? If so, I strongly disagree. You show me one fight where Tua beat a top contender or belt holder and then we can talk. Until then, Tua doesn't even belong in the same sentence with the great Jack Johnson.

You claim people can't seperate this from that... yet you seem unable to seperate different eras from one another and how to view them. Do you not think Jim Brown was great? How about Jim Thorpe? How about Jesse Owens? Each one of these guys are without a doubt below people athletes of today from an athletic point of view. Jesse Owens times are a joke compared to the times of today. Jim Browns 40 yard dash is a joke compared to today's times. Yet, why do people consider them so great... BECAUSE THEY WERE GREAT IN THEIR ERA WHEN ALL THE OTHER ATHLETES WERE USING THE SAME TRAINING METHODS TO GET BETTER AND EMPLOY THE TECHNIQUES THOUGHT TO BE SOUND FOR THE DAY. Johnson beat a crop of fighters you like to equate to ballroom brawlers based on their style and stature. Problem is, that is just how people fought back then and how big people were back then. Yet, during said time with the playing field level.. Johnson completely and utterly dominated the era. So yes, that is the measuring stick. It's moving the goal post to try and say well Tua opponents were more skilled fighters and bigger fighters than Johnson beat. Umm duh, but what is your point? As I illustrated, each era is different, but each era has people that stand out above the rest for a reason. Guess what, Tua was not one of the people, Johnson unquestionably was.
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