Jack Johnson vs. David Tua

English is a second language for him. Not really fair.

 

Really? I have all my clothes on. Keep your fantasy's away from the boxing forum please

 

If you disagree with it ,it must be 100 % correct!:good

 

Siler's opinion of Johnson ,whom he took the credit for having discovered?

This is really funny as Siler can claim to have discovered Johnson back in Johnson's Battle Royal days. He noted his science even then . Siler speaks of Johnson's fight with Klondike, you know ,the one your author not only got the date wrong on ,but also the result .

It was Siler who persuaded Conners to sign Johnson ,assuring him he had the makings of a world champion

Siler says "when Conners, [this would be Johnny Conners], brought him to Chicago to fight Klondike, he did not have a thimblefull of victuals in his stomach. He gave Klondike a hot argument for 5 rds after which his strength ran out out."

"The contest gave him enough money to get the wrinkles out of his stomach ,and also gave him enough strength to become the Colored heavyweight champion".

Siler states ,"Johnson dropped Klondike with an uppercut in rd 1, and only the bell saved Klondike".
This was all taken from the book you want me to read," Inside Facts Of Pugilism"


So, in essence Siler ,whom you claim," did not think much of Johnson ", not only discovered him fighting in battle royals ,but persuaded a big time fight manager to take him, on assuring him he was a future world champion :huh:rofl

Siler also stated Johnson beat Hart.
Originally posted by Slakka.
This was posted on CBZ by Slakka


George Siler's opinion.

"Had the decision been given on points scored by clean hitting blocking and punishment administered then Johnson would have won by a country mile.
After the contest Johnson hardy showed a mark but Harts face was puffed out like a soiled pumpkin from the effects of wicked stabs and hooks landed cleanly by the negro"
Don't you ever get tired of being made to look a complete ****?

 

It is a little unfair to say that Tua has no world class wins. I think Ruiz, Rahman and Maskaev are world class fighters which at least allow Tua to be menioned in the same breath as many of Johnson's fighters.

 

Then I must b correct

, now I have less doubts than b4 :yep

 

Actually I don't count Rahman myself (not a legit win) but I do respect Tua's draw against him and I think that Obed Sullivan , Nate Tubbs , Fres Oquendo were worthy stoppages as well and in yet further fights Tua showed his ability 2 fight until d end even if that end lies @ d end of 12 rounds .

 

Johnson quit in 2 fights, in one he was 48,in the other he was 50 and had broken his hand in the 2nd round. What an absolute ****** you are.

 

This is what I am saying in the sense that Johnson's competition relative to the heavyweights of the 1990's were primitive and lesser athletes as heavyweights. Now read that carefully. Unless you think there is no reason for weight classes, heavyweights who come in at 220 have an inherent advantage over 180 pounders. You point to Langford as great heavyweight victory? Langford, at the time, was the equivalent of a modern junior middleweight. Ketchel was a a puffed up middle, Burns a super-middle. If these are there of his greatest victims, I can hardly see how this qualifies as a debate regarding heavyweights.

Furthermore,Tua fought largely polished fighters, the products of extensive amateur backgrounds and groomed heavy careers, not part time blacksmiths, cowhands and farmers who took up the sport purely as itinerant professionals. Furthermore, some of the very best of these were in their absolute primes... Lewis, Byrd, Ike... Jeffries was a sad old man who didn't want to be in the ring that day, and who apparently thought until the last days that the match was to be thrown in his favor.

Again, and I do not know how many times I need to repeat this, we are comparing head to head not by success in their respective eras. Success in respective eras does not speak to head to head if the eras, the equivalent of the experimental control sample, are drastically different. That is what I am asking you to separate. How would Johnson do against a succession of fighters that included Rahman, Sullivan, Lewis, Byrd, Oquendo, Ibeabuchi, Moorer, Maskaev, Ruiz, wherein even the scrubs were large, well-trained, modern-sized heavies? And conversely, how would Tua do against a succession of Burns, Hart, O'Brien, Ross, Kaufman, Ketchel, old Jeffries, Flynn, Johnson?

 

You missed some key points in your rebuttal.... Johnson also wasn't a modern heavyweight for some fo the names I listed. You tried to make it seem like Johnson was a modern heavyweight beating up on middleweights and cruisers which isn't true is it?

Again, I fully understand the distinction you're "trying" to make and seperate, but again, you're falling victim to the same problem as before. The "modern" heavyweidghts you call polished and seasoned pros are just that because that is what the era has produced. In the modern era you're right fighters have amateur backgrounds, improved techniques that have been accepted as the way to do it and generally bigger. Okay. The fighters back then proved to be the best of the best in what were the techniques of those days and size of those days. Point being, when I consider h2h matchups.. especially with the old time fighters.. I consider them not just being transported to 2000 with no knowledge of today's fighters and techniques and say go.. I assume they are given time to acclimate themselves to the style of today and the benefit of the same training system and supplements as today's fighters. Just like I do when I give modern fighters.. fighting under "old" rules the benefit of acclimating themselves to how they fought then. It seems, you assume Johnson would be dropped into Tua's era and said go get em'... Well I could easily drop Tua is Johnson era with the excess clinching and wrestling and way longer schedule rounds and say go and he would struggle just as much. You seem to assume Johnson is transported.. why wouldn't Tua be is my question. There needs to be a middle ground.. and in doing so.. Johnson wouldn't be devoid of the limitations you'd like and assume he's going to be.

 

Tua over Johnson... lol

 

I'm a fan of Johnson but I think Seamus raises some good points. I would'nt dismiss a Tua who is in shape against Johnson. Head to head I think Tua has what it takes to possibly(note the word "possibly") come out fast and take Jack out. Johnson wouldn't be toying with a MW or SMW here and he probably would'nt be able to cradle Tua in his arms and smile at the press like he did with some of his much smaller and less powerful opponents....In relation to Tua that is. Jack would have to be prepared to fight from the opening bell against an opponent who is fast and powerful when in good form and looking to take his head off. I lean slightly toward Johnson but I wouldn't be shocked if Tua was able to pull it off either. The old timers were good no doubt...but we can't let our admiration for them cloud rational judgement and I think Seamus brought up some very good points.

 

agreed. while i'll favour johnson, the point that weight classes are here for a reason is valid. what if a solid, athletic and skilled 500 pound, 9 foot monster is around in a few years...will johnson still be favoured? EVENTUALLY size and certain physical advantages will overcome skill and ring IQ. tua's size and significantly greater power has to factor in a bit

 

No, but Jeffries outlasts him and Fitz wins by KO :thumbsup

 

Fitz KO's a guy Lennox, Ike, Rahman and Maskaev never even came close to putting on the canvas?

Read me some more bedtime stories, grandpa.