Jack Johnson vs. David Tua

Thats what i mean, i didnt say hed win or lose, but 12 rounds is a long time and with Tua, he can turn it round in one punch, anything can happen in boxing.

 

Sure, but you have to constrain the punchers chance, ie it is not much help against Oliver McCall.

Johnson went 15 years without being KOd, while fighting world class opposition.

Either his chin was under rated, or his defense was as good as Nat Fleisher claimed.

 

Do you have a punch count on Hart? From what fight?

Tua threw almost 800 punches against Ike, if memory serves. And that being according to Boxrec.

 

I know. It's a fighter who is far more proven against powerpunching super heavyweights, of which Tua is one.

 

Thats also true, 2bh, i dont think Tua ever did KO anyone with a decent chin, his ko victories were over mainly dodgy chins anyway. I think Ruiz is the exception.
Thing with Tua is, his arms are deceptively long, which is how he caught Ruiz in the first place, unlike Tyson, who had really short arms.

I only have very basic knowledge of Johson to be honest

 

Lewis is great for the same rason as Johnson.

He beat the best fighters around!

That was too much to ask of Tua.

 

This would be significant to the question at hand IF the eras were equal in terms of the quality of heavyweights.

In terms of "greatness" (judged, as I see it, by one's accomplishments in his own era), Tua can't hold a candle to Johnson. In terms of head to head, this gap shrinks enormously.

 

Because you havent seen them ,are we to assume they were all ****?
Don't take me for a **** Seamus ,you put up the lowest weights in each case we both know it.I redressed it by doing the opposite .

You haven't seen Ed Martin, Butler, Kennedy, Klondike, Felix, Griffin, Russell. So you cannot evaluate them ,they may well have been as good as his challengers.
And you've seen only tiny clips of McVey , and Jim Johnson , about 5 minutes of Moran , not enough to form objective opinions on.

Spin it how you will.

 

Because Johnson ducked d best HWs of his era and Tua fought d best contenders and d best champion ?

 

Why spin it when one has the facts and films?

Sam Mcvey was not only green, he was a teenager in the first two matches vs. a much more seasoned and older Johnson. There is film on Mcvey, and he does not shine. In fact he looks like a paper tiger, shying away from contact at times. On film Tua has more skill than Mcvey does.


There is 40+ minutes of film on Moran in two fights ( Willard, and Johnson ) . There is also clips of Ed Martin sparring with Rulhin. The the ring records and newspaper reports tell us Martin had a glass jaw, and could not take body shots. Don't tell me or anyone here what we have and have not seen. You waste my time, I only post this to correct your mistakes.

 

Are you answering for Seamus now?
I waste your time ? I was addressing Seamus you ******atsch

Pity you wont answer my requests for primary sources concerning Burns ,according to you, having jaundice and,requesting a postponement before fighting Johnson.

How about posting those ringside reports that say Johnson fouled Jeannette with multiple low blows ?

As I posted one that said exactly the opposite,and that also stated Johnson won the 1st round handily,totally different to your original spin that Johnson fouled out to save himself from imminent defeat.

Perhaps you might like to ponder on the fact that Jeannette claimed a foul against Mcvey in one of their fights? A foul that was hotly debated ,indeed , one paper said Mcvey should have been awarded the fight.

How about addressing the fact the George Siler stated Johnson was a coming world's champion and had a defence as good as Jackson's?

Rather different to your stating Siler did not rate Johnson.
How about Siler stating Johnson deserved the victory over Hart?
Care to answer that?
Denver Ed Martin?

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"Denver" Ed Martin
(the "Colorado Giant")

BORN September 10 1881; Denver, ColoradoHEIGHT 6-3 1/2 (Some sources report 6-6)WEIGHT 203 lbsMANAGERS[url]

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[/url]Martin was a strong and shifty competitor who carried a stiff punch but did not possess a tough chin
Among those he defeated during his career were Sam McVea, Bob Armstrong, Frank Childs, John "Sandy" Ferguson, Hank Griffin, Victor McLaglen, Fred Russell, Frank Craig, Walter Johnson, Mike Queenan, "Mexican" Pete Everett and Yank Kenny ....


Kevin Smith's words ,he is an ackowledged authority on the black contenders.


Below,CBZ's take on Joe Butler

Butler was a quick, clever, and slippery fighter who could box or punch; He had fast hands and fast feet

During his career he defeated such men as John Banks, C.A.C. Smith, Ed Binney, Jim Daly, Frank Craig, Henry Baker, Frank "Paddy" Slavin, and Al Weinig.


Their opinion of Klondike. Below.

(John Haines)

BORN Fought mostly out of Chicago, IllinoisDIEDFebruary 1948; San Antonio, TexasHEIGHT 6-0WEIGHT 190-210 lbsKlondike was a strong, muscular fighter who could hit hard but was not a clever boxer

During his career, Klondike defeated such men as Jack Johnson, Joe Goddard, "Denver" Ed Martin and Henry Baker



Below , Hank Griffin.

BORN c 1870DIED May 2 1911; Ann Arbor, Michigan; (Some sources report May 20 1911; age 41)HEIGHT 6-1WEIGHT 180-215 lbsMANAGER"Uncle" Tom McCarey
Some sources report that Griffin was past his prime when he met Jim Jeffries in 1895; They also state that Griffin had 219 bouts up to that time, winning 103 by knockout; Photographs of Griffin make him appear to be 6-2 or 6-3 and about 200 lbs

His greatest skills as a boxer were the use of his long arms in jabbing an opponent and his defensive ability



It appears to me ,these men could hold their with Johnson's title challengers.

Do you know, I do not think I have come across a man whose hatred for a subject has so warped his judgement and twisted his very being , as yourself on the subject of John Arthur Johnson, a man who was dead two years before even I was born . You are beyond sad .

 

There is a sort of parity between eras.

While the quality of the top contenders might varry, the quality of the second teir tends to be at a fairly consistent level.

A fighter who becomes sloppy in their training, will tend to get put to the sword by sombody in any era.

 

Sullivan is sort of the exception that proves the rule.

He arrived when the sport was in a state of chaos. Prize fighting had been stamped out in the U.K, and was being cracked down upon in the U.S, while gloved boxing was a fledgling sport. The top fighters were much weaker than those of both the previous and subsequent era. If you think that I am wrong and Sullivan fought in a strong era, then you would prety much have to acknowledge him as the GOAT.

Even so it is a testament to Sullivans athletic ability that he got away with it for as long as he did.

 

Actually, there are several quotes from Sullivan's era that said that all of the alcohol abuse was to some degree taking its toll on Sullivan, but that he was such a phenom that he was still head and shoulders above everyone else. They marveled at his iron constitution because everyone thought he would or should fall apart at any moment. That's why, in part, they thought Kilrain would beat him. Sullivan himself said he did not drink nearly as much as they said he did, but it is pretty clear that he had a drinking problem. Regardless, after he lost to Corbett, it was said that you can't abuse yourself for years and expect to continually come out on top. They said that inactivity and alcoholism finally caught up to him.