Sam McVea was far better than Sandy Ferguson or Denver Ed Martin. But both Jack Jack Johnson and Sam Langford were better than McVea by a sizable margin. - Chuck Johnston
Quite a few people got kod by Choynski : Fitz Jeffries Corbett Johnson Sharkey All named him as the biggest hitter they faced,according to what Adam has found the indications are that Johnson weighed around the same as Choynski at the time of their fight.
I don't especially like Dempsey's record. At times, I don't like his focus in the ring (especially on the defensive side)... but Dempsey was remarkably talented. Balance, speed, power, chin... he had the complete package in those regards.
Denver Ed Martin had plenty of boxing skill, but was let down repeatedly by his lack of durability. Fred Russell, another early opponent of Jack Johnson, was about 6' 3" tall. - Chuck Johnston
I know all this, thanks. The point was not disparage Johnson for losing to Choynski (tho plenty turned the trick on Joe that Johnson could not). My response was to a poster who stated a prime Johnson would be around the age of 20. I was questioning that assertion.
He should have been prime against Hart or against O'Brien or against Jim Johnson. When exactly was his prime? I believe I did a thread about this years ago. Most said Jeffries My response was that was a very weak test to prove someone's prime. And was he not prime in his performance one year prior against O'Brien or three years later against Jim Johnson or as conveniently countered, was he simply "not trying" ?
I don't think Johnson has ever faced a puncher as well rounded as Dempsey while I also don't believe Dempsey has ever dealt with a long range survivor like Johnson. No two fighters have ever been more opposite if truth be told. Dempsey would bring speed and explosiveness to the table and Johnson would have durability and neutralizing tactics which could wear Dempsey down and frustrate him. Tough fight to call, but I am leaning towards Dempsey by virtue of speed, power and work rate. Like all men, he'd tire eventually, but Johnson would have to weather a very ugly storm and take many vicious shots before his finer attributes would come into play, and it may come too late.
Of course they were more talented than Jess, I'm not sure why this is even debatable. Gibbons was no big solid HW... so he doesn't even meet the criteria you asked about. Even then, they are better HW than Gibbons was. Anyways, I don't know why you ask about Big men... given names.. and then come back with they aren't as talented as these guys. Moving the goalposts are we big Seamus?
So you list a fight where by every account Johnson should've won using modern scoring or even the one typical of the times. He losses based on a system not readily employed anywhere and this is held against him? nah Obrien was a shortened fight and not much to be gathered from that. Only that Johnson would've likely KO'd him under any normal distance Jim Johnson he fought while injured for most of the fight and this is what you cite as an example? Nah
See I agree with most everything you say but don't agree on the outcome you predict, which is fine, no harm there. I don't think Johnson would have to survive many big shots at all, which is why I see him winning. There is NO DOUBT that if Dempsey was the up and coming white fighter to dethrone him and take what was his... AND Johnson was in his prime... The kid gloves would come off in brutal fashion. I think Johnson would neutralize Dempsey inside and frustrate him. Dempsey was there to be hit and Johnson could hit hard when he wasn't holding back his punches. I see Johnson by Brutal KO about round 9 or 10
A plausible outcome for sure.. This is one of those matches that are virtually impossible to be certain on.
Well Jeffries didn't stop Joe despite having a huge weight advantage. When was Johnson's prime? I'd leave that to Adam Pollack to decide.
