Jack Johnson Vs Jack Dempsey...?

He knew the criteria of the day wherein aggression and leading were rewarded. He didn't have some sort of revelation about how boxing would be scored in the future and decide to enlighten the fine folks in audience about how the sport would evolve. Hart was ticket to the belt. However, next day reports concluded that neither Hart nor Johnson were good enough to tackle Jeffries at that time. The bottom-line is that Johnson could not close the deal emphatically (whether by KO or Decision) versus a crude but willing slugger. Is that the great "prime" Johnson of which everyone is speaking?

There are too many "would have's" in Johnson's career. This is another one. O'Brien reddened Johnson's face, outworked and outhit him. Johnson couldn't turn the tide against an old used up O'Brien who he outweighed by 40+ pounds, who was ready to retire, who would go 3-6 over the last fights of his career, getting KO'd twice. That is the "prime" Johnson?

There are reports that he hurt is arm in the last round. What about the previous 9 rounds? Why all the booing when the decision was read? "Prime" Johnson, again?

 

It's always seemed to me telling that, with all the 'White Hope'-hype, there seems to have been little call for a Johnson-O'Brien rematch.

No question, on that day Philly Jack did himself proud and Johnson was censurable in his preparation. Taking nothing away from O'Brien, it wasn't going to get any better.

 

It isn't news that you are not a fan of Johnson. You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, but some of your assertions here are incorrect.

The criteria of the day? the promoter and referee, Creggains warned Johnson a safety first defensive boxer not to stall but to go all out.
He did not warn Hart.
How would it be if Mercante had told Ali ," no dancing round the ring" no holding ,you must fight non stop"?
Hart was a ticket to the belt? Absolute rubbish! Two days before the fight the champion Jeffries reiterated for about the thousandth time that in the event of Johnson winning he would NOT fight him.

O Brien reddened Johnson's face out worked and out hit him? Not according to Pollack's book.
O Brien old ? he was the same age as Johnson!

Johnson broke a bone in his wrist in the second round against Jim Johnson.The crowd booed because it was a dreary fight in which a fat, past it, champion with a broken arm struggled against a younger stronger ,bigger,heavier, opponent .An opponent who would go on to emulate that result with Joe Jeannette a little later,[ 7 months ,] a Jeannette who had both arms in working order. Nine months after drawing with the injured Johnson he drew with Sam Langford.:think
Did you get Mendoza to type this for you Seamus?

 

Perhaps because Ketchell coldcokked him three weeks later….

 

Prior to fighting Johnson ,O Brien had lost one fight [to Ketchel ] in the previous 2 years.

Here's a report of his fight with Mike Shreck

1910-05-03 The Lexington Herald (Lexington, KY) (page 5)

O'BRIEN OUTPOINTS SCHRECK IN FAST GO
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Cincinnati Man Appears In Poor Condition for His Skillful Opponent
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NO DECISION IS GIVEN
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Tony Ross and Al Kaufman Send Challenges By Wire to Winner
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Weighing 167 pounds to 195 for his opponent, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien clearly out-pointed Mike Schreck Monday night in a ten round exhibition before the Navarre Athletic Club at the Lexington Opera House. O'Brien was in the pink of condition, while Schreck was clearly overweight, although in a speech after the contest he declared that he had taken off fifteen pounds since learning of the fight a few weeks ago.

O'Brien gave Schreck credit for a hard, game effort, but winked as he said he was not hurt. Schreck left the house with a bad eye and a somewhat cut face, but was not seriously the worse for wear. O'Brien was not scratched, apparently, as he was much the cleverer of the two and with the advantage in reach was usually away when Schreck's fierce uppercuts got under way.

This was a year after he faced Johnson.

 

I notice you didn't address the moving the goalposts part in my other post by that's okay bud.

No, I said it wasn't even a predominate scoring criteria of the day let alone of the future. Fights decidedly almost solely on aggression wasn't the scoring of even those times. Period, and it's really that simple. Of the typical scoring of that time and in the future Johnson would've won and won comfortably.

Johnson barely trained for the fight and was out drinking the night before. Clearly not taking it all that serious and more like an exhibition... which it was really. That said, we all know the outcome had Johnson took it serious and the fight at the normal distance. Shoot, even if he didn't take it serious in training he would've finished Obrien if the fight was longer

Nope, more reports note that he broke it early in the fight.. I believe the second round. So if this is true, what barring does a draw have on the fight other than a nice showing for Johnson while hurt?

 

Denver Ed Martin strikes me as being the Fred Fulton figure of his era.

A guy who seemed to have everything on paper (height, reach, power, speed, skills, mobility), but turned out to lack durability.

Now given Johnson's specific style, and Martin's physical advantages, I give Johnson a fair bit of credit for mastering Martin the way he did.

 

Unlike Fred Fulton, Denver Ed Martin wasn't a good puncher.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Johnson gets dropped but pulls out a decision win in a tough fight.

 

There were definitely those who said that he was!

 

It isnt really relevant, but for interest sake Shrek was the man who defeated Marvin Hart after Hart beat Johnson. With O Brien beating Shrek and Ketchell having beat O brien, it sort of gives Ketchell more credibility as a challenger and is technically a bit of revenge for the Hart defeat, which with the great white hope search has always struck me as astonishing as to why Hart didnt get promoted to the hills as the great white hope, in those early days.

 

I'm just sticking this out there so to speak, I've no results to quote to bolster the argument but don't want to shape it in that way.
I think Johnson's actual fighting peak (and I describe peak as being the condition most likely to win over a 12 round modern ruled bout against any given fighter) could well have been his physical peak. I'd gauge that around 25-27.
He already had a $hit ton of fighting experience and came up through the ranks in surely some of the hardest times to make your name as a black fighter, especially one who was a threat to the coveted HW title. Scuffing about in the scrub lands of 19th century Galveston there must've been thousands of potential Jack Johnsons but there was only one. I think that's due to hardwired natural talent which, I reckon, was no sharper after the 300th fight as it was after the 200th.
In short, I don't believe his recorded legit victories applies (as a gauge of peak fighting condition) as it would to,say, Floyd Mayweather.

Anyone else agree?

 

IMHO Jack Dempsey wins

 

My Money is on Jack!

 

Ultimate Jack-off