Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries, Primes

How do we know that ? Again, he trained, he sparred, it would be nice to have information on who he sparred in the trainning camp...

Common sense is wrong, sometimes, Greg... what makes 35 be old is not simply the age number, it´s the wear and tear faced inside the ring... which is the reason guys today make good fights while much older...... the injuries back then were terrible, and you get those injuries by being active..and... wear and tear is what makes your body falls apart. Jeffries didn´t have that for 6 years.

Johnson was fighting, active, all those years, and because of that in a much better form, physically ? I don´t, necessarily, agree with that.

 

I think it's well established that Jeffries retired and didn't spar until the call to fight Johnson became too strong.

Sparing during camp for a few months doesn't make up for 5.5-years of complete inactivity, including training and sparring, particularly at age he was past his natural physical prime.

Do you consider the Ali who fought Frazier to be peak? If not, why not, at age 29?

 

That makes me change my mind ! If he did not spar too much then he was all over the place and not well prepared for a fight... okay.

 

I don´t know. He looked fine in the Quarry and Bonavena fights from what I can remember. Frazier was a different class though...

 

Frazier was a different class to Quarry and Bonavena, agreed.

By the eye test, even allowing for Frazier's brilliance and the impact that had on how Ali looked, Ali was never quite the same fighter post exile that he was pre it. I suspect the vast majority of posters feel that way too.

There's training and sparring to tick over, as Ali did during his exile, and then there's intense training and sparring during camp to get in elite condition for a scheduled fight.

Go 3 years without the latter and it's going to take some time to get back to where you were. If your comeback occurs age 29 or later, you'll never truly get back to where you were.

 

You see, I understand, and my view is controversial, but I felt myself, and feel like when you take some time off, of intense trainning... you do comeback refreshed... and this is never ever considered in fighting... but of course, there are limits... 6 years ? It´s too much.

 

I agree proper rest is important.

In football/soccer, players clearly comeback stronger after a 2-week winter break.

They also take a few games to get to peak match fitness after 3-months off playing games during the preseason, roughly half of which is spent in intensive training and playing friendly games.

Proper rests are helpful. Multiple years out of competition is never helpful, unless to allow a serious injury to heal, e.g. Braddock's hand injury.

 

Alongside that, Jeffries spent his entire period of inactivity drinking and eating, and this is during his early to mid 30s which is the period where athletic decline largely starts. To balloon up like that, then suddenly take all of that bad weight away out of nowhere at 35, was never going to end well for Jeffries. Jeff was a fighter who’s style was physical.

 

Johnson would’ve always had battered him, he at least had a primitive understanding of range manipulation to box and how to use the lead hand and feet to walk guys onto the right, Jeffries just looked plodding with strength and the one big punch.

 

Prime vs Prime in 15, would slightly/somewhat favor Johnson, odds pretty close

 

I agree with this

 

I think much of this is overstated. @mcvey has repeatedly cited texts debunking the 300 pound claim. Furthermore, he was in training for a full year, which knocks down that retirement time. Plus, let's not make him to some infirmed old man. He wasn't even 3 years older than his opponent, who also had 3 times the pro ring encounters than Jeffries.

While Jeffries certainly wasn't prime, the other consideration is that he just was never that good beyond natural physical talent of strength and quickness (departments in which Johnson at the very least equaled him) and holding distinct physical advantages over his best opponents. Dude began as a complete amateur and only fought 19 times. He was never a finished product.

 

I won't quibble as to whether Jeffries trained for 6 or 12-months of his 6-year retirement or the exact extent of his undoubted weight gain, partly because I'm no expert on the matter and partly because it's largely immaterial.

He was inactive for 6-years, the majority of which he was retired and wasn't training and sparring.

That those who hold Jeffries in the lowest regard concede "he certainly wasn't prime" speaks volumes to me.

"Certainly not prime" is about as complimentary a statement as to Jeffries condition vs Johnson, relative to his peak, as can credibly be given.

If my 5.5-years without training was 6-months overstated, "not prime" is somewhat understated, imo.

 

Hi Vic.
Firstly thanks for your prompt reply, I know you have been controversial over the years, as a poster who knows their stuff I have followed you avidly, and have found that you acquit yourself well in debates, and you are characlistly conceding I might be right, and that speaks well of you, as for being right, I might or might not be, who knows, more importantly you replied in a respectful and polite manner, which is far more important to myself and the forum in general I believe.
stay safe Vic, chat soon buddy.