Jack Johnson vs. Jeffries in 1905

I think you need to consider what you mean by "strength". I am sure Jeff could probably execute his power lift of choice at the same level in 1910 as he did in 1905, at least if he had incurred no injuries. However, this has limited relevance to strength in a boxing ring. For one, his legs were probably shot due to age and extended inactivity. And one thing about pushing around in clinches is that it is not a bench-press competition. It is a whole body, and mostly lower body, affair. Also, there is the previously mentioned notion of stamina, which greatly declines by that age if you do not actively maintain a high level of fitness, which Jeff did not. And there is simply no reclaiming that to a world class level if you let it go. You do not retain this strength in your 30's by sitting on a barstool or chilling on the porch of your farm. And once gone as far as Jeff let it go, it's not coming back, not at that age.

 

Never have I seen a fighter get so much credit for beating a guy that was out of the game for 6 years like Jeffries was. Johnson is perhaps the most significant Heavyweight Champion of all time but he is way overrated on here he was very primitive and I would not favor him over many of the champions after him. This is not to disparage Johnson as his story is a great one and he certainly was a fine prize fighter. :good

 

I am very cool and chilled out, just dissapointed that you have resorted to Mendoza like arguments ,I thought you were better than that.

Gunboat Smith knocks Johnson down in sparring ,shock, horror!

Johnson must have had a weak chin then.
Johnson is kod by a super middle ,well at least you didnt call him a" supper middle " .
Newsflash Johnson was a super middle himself then ,or nearabouts.

Johnson is knocked down by Ketchel , with a punch that appears to go around the top of his head ,a punch that he is allready falling from ,before it has landed.

This is all old tired Mendoza crap . The personal attacks appear to be coming from you , time of the month ,pissed , big game hunter?
How utterly juvenile.
If you are going to insult me ,at least come up with something witty .I like a laugh.


I told you your last couple of posts were not good,I originally typed **** but edited it out.


In the light of your puerile attack on me I feel free to be honest,they were lazy,childish and inane,and worst of all , had no relevance to the issues at all.
PS When you make a last telling riposte as you sign off, it is as well to spell it correctly.LOOSE is the word you were groping for I think,but perhaps you were losing your cool,emotional,pissed?:hi:

Now we can go on in this fashion, or you can revert back to your equable self, Your choice.

 

Kurupt- Let me personalize this a bit... I was a decent sprinter in heyday. In my mid-30's,I was working out a track and some local football players were timing 40 yard dashes (the regulated measure of speed for American football). I stepped in on a couple and clocked some fast times, much to their and my disbelief, times very close to those I ran in my 20's. So, I decided to start training again for my beloved 400 meters.

A couple months later, feeling in great shape, at a good weight, I decided for a time trial over 400. I paced myself very well over the distance, completely exhausted myself by the end.. and let's just say I was nowhere near the worst times I ran in my 20's. It was deflating but a lesson learned. Once you let some things go, they can't be reclaimed. I could still outsprint almost anyone over a short distance, but there was no way I would ever reclaim the ability to do a long sprint. I think this might be somewhat analogous to what Jeffries went through and really how his strength had been depleted.

It's a bit of an oversimplification to say he was stronger or less strong from one date to the next. I think it needs to be put in the context of the type of strength a 20 round fighter would require.

 

I think from my experience, this is 100 percent correct and i defy anyone who has experienced such things to say otherwise.

On a slightly differeent note though, is how long resting/not training is too long. I would have thought that when there is no training even as little as 12 months can be enough in many instances would you agree with this. Even regardless of acge, once you let yourself go, you rarely make it back to the same level of performances.

 

I never suggested that Langford picked Johnson to win:huh

Langford actually made a statement that he would be there to see Johnson carried out of the ring unconscious.

What a chump he must have felt after the fight?

 

The first half of the Hart fight was not really competitive as Johnson won the majority of the rounds handily.
Johnson scaled 168lbs, 8 months prior to fighting Choynski ,that is a super middle.
Actually he was not unconscious ,or out cold,against Choynski, if you took the trouble to read the fight report you would know this.

Johnson was tkod in 1898 by Klondike,George Siler the premier referee, stated the 21 years old Johnson was half starved.

Johnson was kod by Choynski in1901 when he was unable to rise before the count of 10,he was 22years old,the police climbed into the ring and took both men away. [ some reports say it was blow to the temple actually not the chin].

He was kod by Willard in 1915 when he was 37 years old, and again in 1928 by Bearcat Wright ,when he was 50.

I suggest that if Jim Jeffries had fought for over 30 years , until he was over 50 , he would have a few stoppage losses on his record too, we all saw what happened the only time he fought out of his prime.
P S When does your shift end ,and Mendoza clock in?:yep

 

Johnson and Choynski probably weighed about the same. They were essentially super-middleweights/light heavyweights who could fight in the heavyweight division. The light heavyweight division was in its infancy, and not really even recognized at that point. If you were over 158 pounds, you were a heavyweight and could fight anyone, regardless of size. It is fair to estimate that both weighed about 170 pounds, as both weighed around that for fights before and after. No official weights were taken, given that it was a heavyweight bout. Johnson had the height, reach, and youth advantages, but Choynski had the vast experience advantage. Everyone said Choynski was brilliant at timing his opponents with big punches, including guys like Jeffries and Fitzsimmons, both of whom had gotten nailed with a few big ones by Joe. Johnson later said Choynski hit harder than anyone he had ever fought.

Choynski indeed knocked Johnson out cold, despite some later claims that the police stopped the bout. Actually, the police had orders to allow the bout to be completed before arresting the participants so that they could not later have a technical argument that they had not fought. The local account confirmed that Johnson was lying unconscious in the middle of the ring and had been counted out when the police entered the ring. They first arrested Choynski, and two of the other rangers stood guard over Johnson until he woke up.

The referee said Choynski had knocked him out with a right to the jaw after feinting a left.

 

Perhaps you should print your source of the Hart fight coverage as The Examiner, Chronicle and Call all report it far differently than you do. All three have a competitive fight through out .. PLease post your source to back your claim.

I assure I have read as much Johnson as anyone and not just love stories. He was flattened and wanted no part of continuing against Choynski and freely admits it in his own Life and Battles book. He makes no bones about it. I know revisionists like yourself need to cling to something but it's simply incorrect. Yes, of course he was half starving against Klondike. The shot to the gut did nothing ...

Yes he was KO'ed by Willard in Havana and it was by one shot. Exactly my point. When his stamina went and his defensive skills went his chin was nothing. Holmes took a harder shot v.s. Shavers as did Ali and neither were stopped. IT took rounds of pummeling by Marciano and Schmeling o stop Louis. We are left to speculate on Dempsey w Flynn but even Patterson got up against Liston and time and again v.s. Ingo .. JOhnson was a heavyweight Roy Jones or a poor man's Lennox Lewis .. HIs chin was not his strength.

Thanks for admitting Jeffris was not in his prime or near it in any way v.s. JOhnson ... now go prove your manhood by shooting some rabbits

 

Adam thanks for your input I was going on the accounts posted here by such as Senya,in a thread entitled ,"Did Choynski really knock Johnson out?"

Johnson, who was notoriously economical with the truth said the police stopped it , but accounts say he was down and unable to rise, either from a left or right, temple or chin , take your pick. If you say he was unconscious, I have no problem accepting your research.

 

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You have been wrong here at least three times in this thread. Yes, I told you Jeffries and Delaney had a falling out. When this happens, it is wise not to take the words of the one with an ax to grind at face value. Jeffries never quit in any fight. However, Johnson did...TWICElol: Are you learning anything yet?